Should I appeal my PIP Decision?

poppy12345

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but please know that i don't mean anything by it but i read half of that and got really bored. You're talking about things that aren't really relevant to the PIP descriptors.

You mention washing the dishes but you won't score any points for this because it's not part of the PIP descriptors.

Concentrating on the assessment report will not score you any points at all. The Tribunal won't be interested in anything that did or didn't happen, or anything that was or wasn't said during the assessment.

Concentrating on that can harm your case. You need to forget about it, it's gone and in the past.

What they will be interested in is where and why you think you should have scored those points.

Reading through parts of the above i can see assertions, not evidence. Saying you can't do X , i have Y if i do Z won't score you points either.

Assertion is where you say you cannot do something. You may even explain why not. None of that is evidence. Evidence is when you give specific, detailed and recent examples of incidents where you have attempted a specific activity.

For example.. “I fall” is assertion. Anyone could say it. 
”I have fallen in the back garden“ is assertion. Anyone could say it.
”I fell in the back garden a week last Tuesday followed by several paragraphs on when; how; why; what happened; who saw it; what happened next and so on. That’s evidence. Only you could say it.

Jordan_UK

But if I know my condition well and can avoid situations that I know I cannot complete, (because other people can do the task or I have to skip it, how can I give 'evidence'? I have a controlled environment where I can avoid these activities that I am unable to complete or activities that I will suffer severe negative consequences from doing.  

I've had this condition for a number of years and know my limits very well, and regularly test them in controlled ways. If I haven't fallen in the back garden (or whatever the case may be) but would do if I had to engage in said activity, how am I supposed to present that? 
I can't get through all the tasks listed in PIP, not reliably, as often as I need to, and without pain/aggravation of my symptoms. And certainly not in the same day.
I know my body so I won't attempt stuff I know I can't do, I'll stop before I reach that point, and avoid things like travelling to unfamiliar places.   
Just trying to understand how I'm supposed to present the information accurately. 

Edit: M.E has a baseline, while you still suffer from symptoms, they are milder. The symptoms are aggravated by activity, often rapidly, but the process is progressive, so you know beforehand what you can't do.

Spoonie_Turtle

Jordan_UK said:

But if I know my condition well and can avoid situations that I know I cannot complete, (because other people can do the task or I have to skip it, how can I give 'evidence'? I have a controlled environment where I can avoid these activities that I am unable to complete or activities that I will suffer severe negative consequences from doing.  

I've had this condition for a number of years and know my limits very well, and regularly test them in controlled ways. If I haven't fallen in the back garden (or whatever the case may be) but would do if I had to engage in said activity, how am I supposed to present that? 
I can't get through all the tasks listed in PIP, not reliably, as often as I need to, and without pain/aggravation of my symptoms. And certainly not in the same day.
I know my body so I won't attempt stuff I know I can't do, I'll stop before I reach that point, and avoid things like travelling to unfamiliar places.   
Just trying to understand how I'm supposed to present the information accurately. 

Edit: M.E has a baseline, while you still suffer from symptoms, they are milder. The symptoms are aggravated by activity, often rapidly, but the process is progressive, so you know beforehand what you can't do.

Agree with every word of this.

If they want that kind of evidence from me it'll be from 3 or 4 years ago when I was still desperately trying to function. Actually I think I did include some examples on the form of when I did stuff because I absolutely had to, e.g. cooking was so exhausting I couldn't eat and after resting for an hour just had to put the late of food in the fridge and go to bed. That was maybe 2 years ago at least. How often does that happen now? Well, never, because I never push myself that far beyond my limits because I can't afford to.

If you are completely right poppy then people with ME who know and stick within their limits will *always* have to go to tribunal, which is quite frankly discriminatory. You might be right, but I desperately hope not. 

EDIT: but of course you are right about sticking to the activities assessed (not extra activities), and about focusing on your functioning and not the assessment/report.

poppy12345

Jordan_UK said:

But if I know my condition well and can avoid situations that I know I cannot complete, (because other people can do the task or I have to skip it, how can I give 'evidence'? I have a controlled environment where I can avoid these activities that I am unable to complete or activities that I will suffer severe negative consequences from doing.  

I've had this condition for a number of years and know my limits very well, and regularly test them in controlled ways. If I haven't fallen in the back garden (or whatever the case may be) but would do if I had to engage in said activity, how am I supposed to present that? 
I can't get through all the tasks listed in PIP, not reliably, as often as I need to, and without pain/aggravation of my symptoms. And certainly not in the same day.
I know my body so I won't attempt stuff I know I can't do, I'll stop before I reach that point, and avoid things like travelling to unfamiliar places.   
Just trying to understand how I'm supposed to present the information accurately. 

Edit: M.E has a baseline, while you still suffer from symptoms, they are milder. The symptoms are aggravated by activity, often rapidly, but the process is progressive, so you know beforehand what you can't do.

The example about the fall was just a random one and i have no idea if it's related to your condition. I've no idea how you can present your case because i've exhausted all my advice. All i can say is please forget about the assessment and the report because it can  harm your case.

Jordan_UK

I appreciate the insight and what you've said is helpful, knowing how to approach these things is a really big factor that I've been in the dark on, so thank you for that. 

Muttleythefrog

I think some people, myself included, have to give theoretical walk-throughs of what will happen to explain how you are affected by your conditions. Unfortunately not all illnesses/disabilities present what poppy is describing as evidence.... precisely because most people with disabilities will probably logically try to avoid that disability manifesting to their detriment and a solid case should probably be made in form completion etc to explain why avoidance is necessary and how you get around the task such as by a carer doing it for you. A good example is perhaps avoiding people or going out due to overwhelming distress. For Mobility 1 I describe how I would be affected in the planning and then execution of an attempt to go out on a journey - however the DWP (and the assessor at last assessment) conclude that while those difficulties exist the reality is that for the majority of the time the actual difficulty of completing a journey is the overwhelming fear associated with starting one and so there is almost always avoidance and therefore that is the applicable descriptor (Mob. 1E).  I would say that in effect the descriptor is selected because there is a lack of evidence of successfully going out on journeys and at assessment the journeys undertaken (including my wedding which was queried in detail) in the previous year were stated.

In a sense... to try to create examples for evidence (of the consequences of trying to perform tasks you cannot reliably do) which nobody here is of course suggesting would require in such circumstances a deliberate attempt to try to manufacture evidence for PIP that may not ordinarily exist... and that in some circumstances may be reckless or dangerous or indeed run risk of indicating inconsistencies with daily described experience and outlook. You might have to refer to historical attempts to perform a task and what happened.

There does need to be that realism in the PIP claim process - people learn to live with disabilities and that means trying to overcome them in some way. That will often involve avoiding doing the things which are a problem. I would add... let's not overestimate the intelligence and capabilities of assessors or decision makers... what they consider evidence or persuasive can be divergent and sometimes obscure.... I was unable to convince the DWP after my last assessment that I even knew my own wife's name above that of the assessor who got it completely wrong and the assessor justified the descriptor choices by referring to the wrong diagnoses. I don't think that we are talking about great scientific analysis here but more anecdote and extrapolation through narrow lenses. Tribunals likely look at these things in a much more methodical and professional manner... and of course seem to consider all the evidence whereas I suspect in many cases the DWP do not.

Spoonie_Turtle

Well, I knew it might happen but I was optimistic - I'm in the same boat as you now. Didn't get a copy of the report yet but just today got the decision letter with 0 points daily living and a mobility distance plucked out of thin air (still no award), with the justification for everything being a load of balderdash. Oh, and no diagnosed conditions apparently - a shame my body didn't get that memo (!). I thought requesting a copy of the report would give me a few weeks' notice at least to prepare an MR if needed, but oh well. Such is life.

Muttleythefrog

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Well, I knew it might happen but I was optimistic - I'm in the same boat as you now. Didn't get a copy of the report yet but just today got the decision letter with 0 points daily living and a mobility distance plucked out of thin air (still no award), with the justification for everything being a load of balderdash. Oh, and no diagnosed conditions apparently - a shame my body didn't get that memo (!). I thought requesting a copy of the report would give me a few weeks' notice at least to prepare an MR if needed, but oh well. Such is life.

This is terrifying... when people who understand the assessment criteria and benefit well and being wiped out in a poor assessment... sorry to hear it. My worst nightmare is losing PIP right now and I'm 6 weeks since I returned the forms and 6 weeks from a critical Visa application when I need it. Good luck with what I presume will be challenging the decision...

Spoonie_Turtle

Muttleythefrog said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Well, I knew it might happen but I was optimistic - I'm in the same boat as you now. Didn't get a copy of the report yet but just today got the decision letter with 0 points daily living and a mobility distance plucked out of thin air (still no award), with the justification for everything being a load of balderdash. Oh, and no diagnosed conditions apparently - a shame my body didn't get that memo (!). I thought requesting a copy of the report would give me a few weeks' notice at least to prepare an MR if needed, but oh well. Such is life.

This is terrifying... when people who understand the assessment criteria and benefit well and being wiped out in a poor assessment... sorry to hear it. My worst nightmare is losing PIP right now and I'm 6 weeks since I returned the forms and 6 weeks from a critical Visa application when I need it. Good luck with what I presume will be challenging the decision...

Thank you. Yes, definitely challenging the decision. I was actually wrong, because it took me about 3 rereads to understand the different pages of the letter, they actually awarded 4 points DL because apparently I can cook and shower every day as long as I sit down!! But the Blue Badge itself and the LCWRA award based on mobility should have been clues that I can't actually walk 50m ... *rollseyes*

I hope it goes well for you, there are people getting the right award from the start so you might be one of them it is very possible to prepare for the worst whilst still having hope that it will go the way it should.

Muttleythefrog

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Muttleythefrog said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Well, I knew it might happen but I was optimistic - I'm in the same boat as you now. Didn't get a copy of the report yet but just today got the decision letter with 0 points daily living and a mobility distance plucked out of thin air (still no award), with the justification for everything being a load of balderdash. Oh, and no diagnosed conditions apparently - a shame my body didn't get that memo (!). I thought requesting a copy of the report would give me a few weeks' notice at least to prepare an MR if needed, but oh well. Such is life.

This is terrifying... when people who understand the assessment criteria and benefit well and being wiped out in a poor assessment... sorry to hear it. My worst nightmare is losing PIP right now and I'm 6 weeks since I returned the forms and 6 weeks from a critical Visa application when I need it. Good luck with what I presume will be challenging the decision...

Thank you. Yes, definitely challenging the decision. I was actually wrong, because it took me about 3 rereads to understand the different pages of the letter, they actually awarded 4 points DL because apparently I can cook and shower every day as long as I sit down!! But the Blue Badge itself and the LCWRA award based on mobility should have been clues that I can't actually walk 50m ... *rollseyes*

I hope it goes well for you, there are people getting the right award from the start so you might be one of them it is very possible to prepare for the worst whilst still having hope that it will go the way it should.

Best of luck.... I know that panic looking trough these reports or decision details and sometimes not seeing the wood for trees. I used my previous WCA report from last year as it directly details some relevant claims regarding PIP... so yet again troubling your award circumstances regarding LCWRA seems to have had no impact. My problem if I did lose entire award (which admittedly is much less likely than likely I'd say) I would not have time to appeal.. and it increasingly looks likely I wouldn't even have time for  a reconsideration before all damage would be done...wife/carer gone. The timing is perilous. I wish I could take some stress off you.. because it don't think it'd make much difference to me at the moment..lol. Have confidence in yourself...