Replaced engine failed a few days after install

doubleoseven

Hello, 

Last week I paid c£4k to have a used engine and gearbox with associated new parts and labour to fit by a small specialist garage (garage A) with experience and a good reputation for the make of car that I am restoring. These particular cars have a reputation for being extremely reliable, provided they have correct oil levels and oil is changed regularly. It's common place to have used engines replaced where engines haven't been looked after (my used one hadn't). You'll find hundreds of blog posts of these engine transplants happening with no issues by specialists when done properly and fully tested, normally these engines can achieve very high mileage without reliability issues with the correct maintenance. 

On the day I picked it up last week, I drove it an hour on the motorway to another specialist company to get the ECU re-calibrated for the new engine/parts, upon arrival it was noted the oil pump had not been fitted properly and as a result the engine was not getting correct oil pressure. Correct oil levels and oil pressure is absolutely vital for the healthy running of these engines (as with any engine really) and can cause damage and even complete failure in the worst case. I was advised not to drive it any more prior to that being fixed because it could damage the engine. Garage A was very apologetic/embarrassed when I contacted them, and came over straight away to remedy the situation in situ. It was also discovered some other parts (throttle body and one of the coolant pipes) were also not fitted properly. These were also corrected, but obviously started to give me some concerns over the quality of the work in this instance.

The engine ran ok for the first few days, and I was assured if damage had occurred the results would be immediate. However, last week I went on a European holiday and whilst away it started to make strange noises on the motorway and the engine hit flat spots cutting in and out the variable valve timing zone, eventually an engine warning light came on and the engine was put into limp mode (limiting the revs to protect the engine from damage). 

I called Garage A and he said best thing was to drive it at low revs to my destination and get a local garage to look at it and work out what the engine warning light represented (error code). 

I found one, they established the error code was to do with valve timing, which is governed by oil pressure, the local garage said it could have been a sensor error due to the new engine, not necessarily anything fundamentally wrong. And to test and see if the warning light came back. Garage A agreed. I did ask Garage A if I should get the car transported back to him, but he said that was too drastic and he didn't think the error code represented anything serious that could damage the engine. And the engine management system would take over if anything was causing a problem. 

I then took it out to test at higher speeds as suggested and suddenly in 4th gear there was a cluck and the engine cut out, and something clearly hit the ground, when I pulled over the coolant had come out, steam was pouring off the engine and it would not turn over / seized.

I was recovered by the AA Euro back to a local garage, who showed the engine had a crack in the side, suggesting a piston rod had snapped and broken the engine casing, which can only really be done by over revving the engine on down shifts or oil starvation/lack of oil pressure. It happened going up the gears from 4th to 5th, so it was not a result of over revving. Although without someone specialist inspecting the car, it's not easy to give an exact cause. Needless to say though, if the engine was checked and found to be in good order and then fitted properly it should not completely fail like this. 

The car is now stranded in Europe, the AA have it at a depot, I'm being charged £1.1k to get it back to the UK, which I can potentially claim back from the AA if I can show proof I have got the engine replaced. 

I spoke to Garage A after this happened, they were very apologetic and upset at what happened, but were very much insinuating that the liability was on me to replace etc. And not offering a remedy or standing by their work. 

I've tried to call them today and it rang out, possibly they rejected the call. I have yet to put anything in writing pending a 'friendly' chat. It's made worse because I got on very well with the guy and I would say became friends. And we have mutual friends in a fairly small circle of enthusiasts. Which makes aggressively seeking a remedy awkward and approaching this in general awkward. 

I have made an initial S75 claim, which I wait for a response on whether it's covered. 

Would really appreciate any advice on how best to approach a solution for this problem. 

AdrianC

doubleoseven said:

Last week I paid c£4k to have a used engine and gearbox with associated new parts and labour to fit by a small specialist garage (garage A) with experience and a good reputation for the make of car that I am restoring.
...

On the day I picked it up last week, I drove it an hour on the motorway to another specialist company to get the ECU re-calibrated for the new engine/parts

Some specialist if they can't do that...

upon arrival it was noted the oil pump had not been fitted properly and as a result the engine was not getting correct oil pressure.

Surely the oil pump would either be fitted correctly and pumping... or not and not? If it wasn't pumping at all, there's no way the engine would have survived an hour's motorway. I presume the oil pressure light was self-testing correctly, and wasn't illuminated?

However, last week I went on a European holiday and whilst away it started to make strange noises on the motorway and the engine hit flat spots cutting in and out the variable valve timing zone, eventually an engine warning light came on

You mean the "check engine" engine management light? Not the oil pressure light?

I found one, they established the error code was to do with valve timing

Variable valve timing, presumably? So it's simply not going to switch between cam profiles/timings.

I then took it out to test at higher speeds as suggested and suddenly in 4th gear there was a cluck and the engine cut out, and something clearly hit the ground, when I pulled over the coolant had come out, steam was pouring off the engine and it would not turn over / seized.

I was recovered by the AA Euro back to a local garage, who showed the engine had a crack in the side, suggesting a piston rod had snapped and broken the engine casing, which can only really be done by over revving the engine on down shifts or oil starvation/lack of oil pressure. It happened going up the gears from 4th to 5th, so it was not a result of over revving.

It could well be, if you missed the gear or hit 3rd instead of 5th.

A snapped conrod is rarely the first sign of oil starvation. There's usually going to be a whole load of aural clues before it gets to that stage, on top of the pressure light coming on. You're going to need that engine stripping down to see if there's any clues internally as to what caused the failure - if a big end seized, it'll be very apparent.

Either way, I presume you want to get the car back to the UK, rather than see it scrapped locally? So get it repatriated and taken to a reputable garage, who can give you more information. Then you can use that to decide if you've got sufficient evidence to launch a small claim against the garage who supplied and fitted the engine.

But, given that other people have been working on it since it left them, and it was a used engine that (I presume) hadn't been inspected internally before fitting, I think you might be on an uphill battle to prove liability.

Given that this is seemingly something a bit specific, I wonder if you'd be best off on a marque-specific forum.

ElephantBoy57

doubleoseven said:

Last week I paid c£4k to have a used engine and gearbox with associated new parts and labour to fit by a small specialist garage (garage A) with experience and a good reputation for the make of car that I am restoring. These particular cars have a reputation for being extremely reliable, provided they have correct oil levels and oil is changed regularly. It's common place to have used engines replaced where engines haven't been looked after (my used one hadn't).

Although its a used engine, surely it would come with a short warranty, did the garage buy the engine or did you buy it?

Did garage 'A' fit a new oil pump?

[Deleted User]

S75 will only get you a refund, if you need more to cover the cost of recovering the car, rental vehicle etc then small claims court is the way to go. Letter Before Action to start with.

bigadaj

[DELETED USER] said:

S75 will only get you a refund, if you need more to cover the cost of recovering the car, rental vehicle etc then small claims court is the way to go. Letter Before Action to start with.

No, consequential costs can be covered as well under section 75.

DoaM

bigadaj said:

[DELETED USER] said:

S75 will only get you a refund, if you need more to cover the cost of recovering the car, rental vehicle etc then small claims court is the way to go. Letter Before Action to start with.

No, consequential costs can be covered as well under section 75.

Is the correct answer. S75 makes the credit provider jointly liable with the seller for the performance of the contract, not just a refund of the contract price.

caprikid1

ElephantBoy57 said:

doubleoseven said:

Last week I paid c£4k to have a used engine and gearbox with associated new parts and labour to fit by a small specialist garage (garage A) with experience and a good reputation for the make of car that I am restoring. These particular cars have a reputation for being extremely reliable, provided they have correct oil levels and oil is changed regularly. It's common place to have used engines replaced where engines haven't been looked after (my used one hadn't).

Although its a used engine, surely it would come with a short warranty, did the garage buy the engine or did you buy it?

Did garage 'A' fit a new oil pump?

I think this is the important bit, who supplied the engine and what were they asked to do. Whilst it does not sound like the install was great I feel this is key information.

doubleoseven

Thanks everyone. 

Yes, Garage A sourced a used engine and fitted it. 

These engines are extremely strong, are capable of high mileage when maintained and can only really go wrong with low oil levels or low oil pressure. 

The engine sourced had a good service history, came from a trusted source, was checked over before being fitted. All the associated parts were brand new OEM. Brand new oil and filters etc. These guys has experience doing this, but dropped the ball on the oil pump, and a few other parts were not fitted properly. Perhaps a rushed job with too much work on, he's generally a good guy and it's really unfortunate this has happened. 

Garage A would normally take the car to the specialist to get the ECU reprogrammed himself at Garage B (because he does not have a dyno in his workshop and is a spanners man, not a laptop man). However, it would have taken an extra day for him to take it there, then return to his workshop for me to pick up. And Garage B is exactly half way from me to him anyway and I was eager to get my car back prior to my holiday. So it was agreed that I would pick it up, and take it to have the ECU calibrated on my way home. 

It was at the ECU calibration garage B that we worked out the oil pump had been fitted incorrectly, by that time it had been driven on the motorway and put on a dyno. So the second garage knew of the error. When considering whether to drive it back to Garage A to get it fitted properly, they categorically advised it should not be driven, as the oil pressure would not be high enough and damage could occur. Which obviously suggested at the time that damage could also have occurred already, which they had to admit was possible. I was obviously concerned, but without evidence of any damage there was little I could do at that stage. 

I then had to stay in a hotel (unplanned) for Garage A to come over the following day to remedy the parts which were not fitted properly at Garage Bs premises. 

I've since spoken to 2 other garages this week who fit and rebuild these engines, and all have agreed, fitting the oil pump with the part missing would ruin the engine and it would only be a matter of time before it fails due to oil starvation of vital parts and bearings. 

With regards to the question from the original reply. The oil warning would not come on necessarily, because although it is not generating full oil pressure it is generating some oil pressure. When people convert these cars into racing cars or for any kind of performance driving, they fit uprated oil pressure garages for this reason. I.e. you might only have 75% oil pressure, the standard sensors will see oil in the sump and going around the top of the engine, and not trigger a warning. However, at 75% in the higher ends of the rev range, it could still cause damage because oil pressure is used to move the cam profile as well as lubricate the engine. 

I've often thought it frustrating more performance cars on the road are not fitted with oil pressure gauages but for most driving conditions with a healthy maintained engine, it's not really an issue. 

The engine warning system that came up was due to the cam swap over switch malfunctioning, I'm told by one of the above mentioned experts, that would be down to oil pressure, almost certainly caused by damage of the car being driven with the part missing. 

The Credit Card company have accepted my initial claim and are investigating it, they need an independent report. 

I'll have two for them on the opinion that fitting the oil pump incorrectly, the car should not be driven to avoid damage to vital parts and bearings. The car is being recovered to Garage B who are witnesses to the oil pump not being fitted properly, will also confirm the general opinion just stated, plus diagnose what they can of the remaining parts of the engine. 

Garage B and the others I have spoke to all think it would be very bad form of Garage A not to offer to fix for free. They might well have a quiet word in his ears, it's a small world for this particular marque. 

Garage A has not returned my calls...yet. I will continue to give them the chance to make it right, whilst pursuing the c/card s75 claim too. 

It's a shame about the costs, recovery is £1k, replacement hire cars, trains, hotel room and doesn't take into consideration the amount of my time that is wasting in trying to get all of this sorted. Ho-hum!

Thanks for the responses, seem to be getting on top of it now. 

AdrianC

I don't understand why the oil pump even needed going near, when simply swapping an engine from one car to another.

doubleoseven

AdrianC said:

I don't understand why the oil pump even needed going near, when simply swapping an engine from one car to another.

It was changed with an updated one which is actually designed to be both more efficient and also help with reliability, ironically enough. The car is of an earlier year that didn't have that one, so whilst the engine was out and the labour to do so had been paid, fitting some not absolutely necessary but fairly cheap brand new parts such as the oil pump was a no brainer. The other oil pump also covered much more miles. So addition to a replaced engine, most of the surrounding parts were brand new OEM to have a very refreshed car mechanically. 

It's kind of irrelevant though, Adrian, that was one of the parts I paid to be fitted, necessary or not and it wasn't fitted correctly, and as a result, that's cause engine damage which has led to a failure. 

Such a shame a small mistake has cost all of that work and caused all this grief for all concerned. 

ess0two

What car is it?