Chargebacks: A Cautionary Tale (Amex / Ryanair)

bagand96

Hi all.  I know chargebacks and waititng for airline refunds have been done to death here the last few months.  I've often held the view that Chargebacks are not always the easy answer, and it appears I was right.

- Ryanair flight cancelled in March
- Chargeback request with Amex made in May after receiving Ryanair voucher (unsolicited voucher which Ryanair were sending in lieu of refunds).  Money re-credited immediately.
- Today, 9th September, letter from Amex saying Ryanair have defended the chargeback due to issuing a voucher, and as such Amex are re-applying the charge to my account.
- Go to Ryanair website to fill in the form for a refund, shows my booking has already been refunded.  Chat to Ryanair, and they say they are showing I received a chargeback so nothing they can do.
- Amex now giving me the run around saying it depends on the T&Cs of Ryanair.

So...... no chargeback, no refund, and I don't even think my voucher is valid now!

Not looking for advice as such (I'll Section 75 Amex now - i've all the proof I need) but just a warning to others, keep on top of your statements!

sgun

I'm confused - if you requested a voucher and received one then why would you also do a chargeback? Ryanair weren't just issuing vouchers, you had a choice of either having a voucher or being put on the list for a refund. There was no option to have both.

[Deleted User]

Chargeback is always open to challenge by providers.  If a voucher has been sent and accepted then a chargeback will fail.

bagand96

sgun said:

I'm confused - if you requested a voucher and received one then why would you also do a chargeback? Ryanair weren't just issuing vouchers, you had a choice of either having a voucher or being put on the list for a refund. There was no option to have both.

I did not accept a Ryanair voucher.

Back in March/April/May when you requested a Refund they automatically sent a voucher out instead. And at that time there was no easy way to get in touch with them to reject the voucher and request cash (for a second time!)

RTguy

Agreed. I am having a similar issue with Opodo.com who now won’t continue to process my refund based on the fact that I initiated a chargeback through Amex - even though that chargeback was challenged and re-credited to Opodo. Hoping 2nd time round that I will have a stronger case as still no refund from Opodo after 90 days. If not, will have to try S75 which lets Opodo off the hook

Matt17

Isn't there a time limit that they have to challenge the chargeback with Amex?
I did a chargeback with Barclaycard and they told me that they had 35 days to challenge after I was re-credited with the money. 

bagand96

Matt17 said:

Isn't there a time limit that they have to challenge the chargeback with Amex?
I did a chargeback with Barclaycard and they told me that they had 35 days to challenge after I was re-credited with the money. 

According to MSE the merchant has 20 days to appeal the chargeback with Amex (45 days with Visa and MasterCard)

I've no idea if Ryanair did appeal within 20 days or not and it's taken Amex this long to process it and get back to me. To be honest I think that's a moot point as chargebacks are not covered by any legislation anyway. 

Amex have reopened the dispute. I've managed to speak again with Ryanair and get screen grabs of them admitting the voucher is cancelled because I had a chargeback. So that should help with Amex. 

To be honest I wish I'd have waited patiently. I did with other airlines and they came good. I only went chargeback because it was Ryanair!

sgun

bagand96 said:

sgun said:

I'm confused - if you requested a voucher and received one then why would you also do a chargeback? Ryanair weren't just issuing vouchers, you had a choice of either having a voucher or being put on the list for a refund. There was no option to have both.

I did not accept a Ryanair voucher.

Back in March/April/May when you requested a Refund they automatically sent a voucher out instead. And at that time there was no easy way to get in touch with them to reject the voucher and request cash (for a second time!)

I think the key to the chargeback was to show you were rejecting the voucher. We made sure we had screenshots of email and live chat where we sent messages asking to be put on the refund list instead. We sent these to our bank as evidence that Ryanair were being obstructive with the refunds. The choices in the email were to accept the voucher or click on yet another link to request a refund again. It was all very underhand so I understand your frustration.

Lissagriffin

I'm having the same problem with Amex for a Ryanair booking cancelled in April for which I requested a refund. No refund came. Only the so-called voucher, which I emailed to reject, not wanting to spend hours on the phone. Amex did the chargeback when requested, but this was reversed when Ryanair told them that I had already been issued with a voucher. Amex seem to think it's up to me to prove that I didn't accept the voucher, but Ryanair's T&C's (follow the link from the original itinerary and confirmation email) clearly say (para 9.2.2) that in the event of cancellation they provide "information on your rights", from which there is a link to a document setting out these rights that states that in the event of a flight cancellation you are entitled to choose to be reimbursed the full cost of tickets, and this is the important bit, "by means provided for in Article 7(3)’. The Regulation referred to is the one mentioned in the first paragraph of the document, namely Regulation EC 261/2004.

Regulation EC 261/2004 is a matter of public record and can be read in full at https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32004R0261

The relevant bit of Article 7(3) says:

"The compensation referred to…shall be paid in cash, by electronic bank transfer, bank orders or bank cheques or, with the signed agreement of the passenger, in travel vouchers and/or other services." [my emphasis added]

This all means that the terms and conditions of Ryanair bookings expressly incorporate the provisions of EC 261/2004 (It's the law anyway, they have no choice). It is therefore not up to the passenger to show that the voucher has been rejected, rather the onus is on Ryanair to show they have the passenger's signed agreement to accept vouchers in lieu of cash, or that the voucher has been used by the passenger.

Since I have signed no such agreement, nor have I used the voucher, I have put all this to Amex today, sending all the relevant documents, web links, etc. and I'm looking forward to their response.

ic

I had the same problem with Air Canada and Amex.  Air Canada rebooked me to a different airport (so cancelled my flight and replaced it), and refused a refund.  I raised a chargeback with Amex.  Later Air Canada challenged it so Amex took the money off me again.  Shortly after the challenge, Air Canada changed their policy and tried to refund - but because the chargeback was open got the message back from Amex that I'd already been refunded.  So Air Canada marked their systems as case closed, I'd been refunded.  I had to persue Amex and reopen the dispute - its eventually been closed with me keeping the money.  I've had no further updates from Amex, I can only see the status changes on the dispute part of the website.

nilanteh

I had a similar experience. Submitted a chargeback in May through Sainsbury’s mastercard after destination2 sent me a refund credit note despite me asking for a cash refund. They closed their phone lines and didn’t respond to emails. They challenged my chargeback within 45 days. Sainsbury’s then wrote to me with destination2s response. I wrote a response explaining the cma position and challenged their reasons why they didn’t need to refund. The credit card confirmed that they agreed with me and would be resubmitting my claim. Today I’ve received a letter confirming my claim has been successful. I have to say Sainsbury’s bank have been fantastic throughout and I’m very glad I persisted