Hybrids -- pros and cons.

Grumpy_chap

Hoof_Hearted said:

Electricity is not a cheap fuel (14-15p a kWh domestically), so I wonder what the true cost of running a full EV really is. 

As I understand it, the fuel (energy) cost per mile of an EV when using domestic electricity at about 14 p/kWh is about half the pence per mile than a typical ICE would achieve.  This gain is wiped out if using the charged for charging network, where the rate is typically 30 p/kWh (if metered) or unknown if flat rate for a charge - confusing price structures seem plentiful.  Obviously, there are some "zero" p/kWh charging points which make the EV far more attractive.
I have never had an EV, so cannot confirm the above, it is simply what I found from ad-hoc and incomplete research tail end of 2019.

gzoom said:

We were all ready to replace our Lexus hybrid with a Tesla Model 3, but when I did the maths on cost of purchase/total ownership costs keeping our Lexus hybrid actually came out on top by a massive margin!

I am very interested to learn more about this comparison as I am keen to go full EV when I can, but the maths don't seem to add up for me.  Like most people doing the assessment, I was doing so from the point of no EV experience.  You are unique in having that experience to bring true substance to the calculation.

I am interested, though, are you comparing a new Tesla 3 (with associated capital outlay) against keeping your existing Lexus (presumably paid, no capital outlay and reduced depreciation on a used car)?  If so, that seems to give the Lexus a £50k head start.  I note that Tesla provide a comparison of their own, but compare a £50k Tesla with a £50k ICE, however, as far as I can tell the comparable ICE vehicle to a £50k Tesla would be £30k (and bigger savings if discounts / pre-reg / nearly new ICE considered).

clive0510

Scrapit said:

MinuteNoodles said:

daveyjp said:

A diesel Mondeo, Focus or any other make will not do 50+ mpg doing those sort of short hop city trips sat in heavy traffic and at some point the DPF,EGR will start complaining.

Actually they do and as long as they get a run out once every few weeks the DPF will be fine.

Absolutely not.

I have a 5 yr old peugeot diesel . that has a cat and a dpf. I've owned it for 4 yrs. never had a dpf problem, engine management light or anything.I pay zero road tax as its emissions are euro 6.1. I have it serviced once a year, also I put some of that diesel magic in the tank because it helps the injectors and keeps the fuel system in good order. and its fine. never a problem. 
but when it comes time to change, I will of course go for an electric car of some sort.

nick74

Hoof_Hearted said:

From what you say, the fuel consumption of hybrids isn't that stunning. I already get 48 mpg from my 1.4 petrol, so 50 mpg isn't worth the extra purchase cost. The wife gets over 50 mpg from her auto Jazz. I am not sure about a fully electric vehicle as they still have a limited range and I am not sure how easy it is to find a charging point. Electricity is not a cheap fuel (14-15p a kWh domestically), so I wonder what the true cost of running a full EV really is. 

A lot comes down to driving style. If your wife is managing to get 50 mpg from a Jazz automatic then I would think 60-70 mpg would be fairly easily achievable from a hybrid in the same conditions.  My mother averages about 66 mpg in her C-HR hybrid for example. Hybrids seem very much a 'marmite' thing, people either love them or hate them. Perhaps hire one for a couple of days and see how you get on with it.

Full electric vehicles are probably the future, but to me a hybrid is practical intermediate step. I'm more than a little sceptical of how the UK electricity grid is going to cope with the load of everyone going home in the evenings and plugging in a 100 kWh battery to charge..

Grumpy_chap

nick74 said:
I'm more than a little sceptical of how the UK electricity grid is going to cope with the load of everyone going home in the evenings and plugging in a 100 kWh battery to charge..

According to National Grid, there is no problem.
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted 

Scrapit

clive0510 said:

Scrapit said:

MinuteNoodles said:

daveyjp said:

A diesel Mondeo, Focus or any other make will not do 50+ mpg doing those sort of short hop city trips sat in heavy traffic and at some point the DPF,EGR will start complaining.

Actually they do and as long as they get a run out once every few weeks the DPF will be fine.

Absolutely not.

I have a 5 yr old peugeot diesel . that has a cat and a dpf. I've owned it for 4 yrs. never had a dpf problem, engine management light or anything.I pay zero road tax as its emissions are euro 6.1. I have it serviced once a year, also I put some of that diesel magic in the tank because it helps the injectors and keeps the fuel system in good order. and its fine. never a problem. 
but when it comes time to change, I will of course go for an electric car of some sort.

Thats all well and good but a diesel focus/mondeo simply will not return 50mpg around town

nick74

Grumpy_chap said:

nick74 said:
I'm more than a little sceptical of how the UK electricity grid is going to cope with the load of everyone going home in the evenings and plugging in a 100 kWh battery to charge..

According to National Grid, there is no problem.
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted 

'Grid' was probably the wrong word, I was thinking more of the local distribution network to individual offices, buildings, villages etc. A lot of it was never designed with these sorts of loads in mind. For example I used to live in a village where it wasn't uncommon for a fuse to pop in the local substation at a certain time each night when everyone's storage heaters kicked in! Where I work our supply is on the verge of being maxed out with the equipment we've already got, add a half dozen or so electric car chargers to that and it will be overloaded. I can see a lot of supplies needing to be upgraded over the coming decades. 

clive0510

Scrapit said:

clive0510 said:

Scrapit said:

MinuteNoodles said:

daveyjp said:

A diesel Mondeo, Focus or any other make will not do 50+ mpg doing those sort of short hop city trips sat in heavy traffic and at some point the DPF,EGR will start complaining.

Actually they do and as long as they get a run out once every few weeks the DPF will be fine.

Absolutely not.

I have a 5 yr old peugeot diesel . that has a cat and a dpf. I've owned it for 4 yrs. never had a dpf problem, engine management light or anything.I pay zero road tax as its emissions are euro 6.1. I have it serviced once a year, also I put some of that diesel magic in the tank because it helps the injectors and keeps the fuel system in good order. and its fine. never a problem. 
but when it comes time to change, I will of course go for an electric car of some sort.

Thats all well and good but a diesel focus/mondeo simply will not return 50mpg around town

I'm getting 52mpg back n forward to work. about 12 miles each way. on a good long trip I get between 60 and 62mph. I'm not unhappy with that. 

gzoom

@Grumpy_chap

In 5 years of EV ownership I've done 99% of charging at home at a cost of 7-8per kWh overnight. Virtually all EVs do 3-4 miles per kWh so you are looking at 2-3p per mile in electricity costs. Factor in £0 VED, virtuality no servicing costs (I've not serviced our EV in 3 year and 46k miles), the only additional running costs is tyres, which last about 20k and replacing with mid range brands works out at 1.5p per mile.

So total EV running costs excluding insurance (similar to any normal car), and initial purchase is around 5p per mile. You need to achieve about 100mpg in fuel costs on a petrol car just to match that interms of fuel costs.

HOWEVER EVs remain every expensive to buy both new and used. Our Lexus IS300H had a list price £43k, so actually very similar to the price of a Model 3. BUT we all know no one pays list price on a brand new car if its not an EV, we actually paid £34k for our IS as a fresh factory order, so nearly £10k cheaper than an equivalent priced Model 3.

The running costs of our hybrid is as follows:

1: £20/year VED
2: £200/year service
3: 10p per mile in fuel costs - 50mpg using unleaded.
4: 1.5p per mile tyre costs.

Our IS300H does 6000 miles per year so total running cost over a year is £960/year. It would take nearly a decade to make up the difference in £10k brand new asking price.

Ofcourse for our situation it was a case of replacing old with new. Our IS300H is 5.5 years old and worth around £15k, so the total intial cost to change to a brand new Model 3 would have been £30kish, so financially it made zero sense, especially when our IS300H performs 'as new' with no worries about reliability even going fowards another 5 - 10 years. The reliability of the hybrid system in a Toyota/Lexus really is second to none, certainly less worrisome than any TDI, lets also forget the chance of been hit with any future clean air taxes in any diesel is pretty high versus any hybrid.

EVs only really make sense right now if you are looking to spend the equivalent amount on a brand new combustion car, in which case I would say they are a no brainer.

I love our current EV and its low running costs, if I hadn't bought it right now I would be in a BMW M5 or similar wasting 20p+ per mile just in fuel costs . But am also not under any illusions about what a barrier the initial purchase prices of EVs are for most people.

gzoom

Our IS300H hybrid will also return close to 60mpg on a long M way run, 50mpg in town in summer and 40mpg in urband traffic in winter.

There is no turbos, clutches, DPFs, ad blue, to worry about. Our car is still on original brake pads/discs at 5.5 years old and 31k as most of the 'braking' is done by the electric motor. There is a reason why nearly every private hire vehicle is some kind of Toyota hybrid these days. Interms of reliable, cost effective motoring, these things are hard to beat. 

Lexus I think was nearly at the top of the recent Which reliability survey, and I can see why.

Chop-D

We had a Yaris hybrid pool car at work and it was the least favourite option we had (Others were full electric). It only usually ran on electric to get out of the car park then straight onto petrol and going up hill it rev’d like mad! Every time I got in the car I really wanted to like it as it was lovely inside but the driving I found disappointing.