Possible Subsidence: to buy or not to buy

zoezipper2011

Hello,

We are about to exchange on a house. 

The building survey flagged potential subsidence, Cracks and potential movement which could be linked to a tree outside the property.

It is a Victorian terrace house and the issues are not uncommon for properties of this age.

With this finding our solicitor has advised it will be very tricky to get insurance and sell in the future as it stands.

He said if the Vendor is willing to make a claim regarding subsidence ahead of exchange we then could take on the agreement after purchase but lots of paper work is involved. The solicitor will also need to tell the bank about the subsidence risk. 

It is so hard to know whether it’s all worth it.... the vendor is in denial about any problems, not willing to reduce the price.

She is considering getting a structural engineer which costs upto £8000 which she said if it is proved that there are no subsidence issues she wants us to refund her for as she thinks the survey findings are wrong.

Help! What would you do?
does subsidence put off future buyers? 

How Would you proceed?

its worth adding we have offered over asking and are paying a very high amount for a house that may need substantial works 

thanks for your help! 

AskAsk

red flags every where.  be very cautious.  i would instruct a structural engineer if you are thinking of going ahead.

zoezipper2011

AskAsk said:

red flags every where.  be very cautious.  i would instruct a structural engineer if you are thinking of going ahead.

Thanks for your response. We have asked for a structural survey to be carried out. 

ChewyyBacca

All I can see £££ sign in Dark red.. meaning bleeding money.
1. You will have to disclose this information to your insurer, when you are buying Home and contents insurance. Many of them would not be inclined to offer you one, your house being adverse selection and all that, and the ones ready to insure will charge you an eye-watering sum.
2. If the survey has shown potential subsidence, underpinning could cost you a great deal in the near future. You cannot delay this, since this can cause more structural damage to the house. Most of it will be recovered through insurance, if you happen to get one.
3. When you are ready to sell the house, you are duty-bound to disclose that the house has been underpinned in the past. That declaration itself should be enough to drive away any half sane person. People are okay with upper doer properties, but subsidence is something that is always treated like the plague.
If the structural engineer comes back with positive news, you would have only shelled out £8K, apart from paying the over asking price and the hassle of a tussle with the mortgage issuers since they don't like the word subsidence either.
Hope this helps. Wish you luck.

thearchitect

A structural engineer will charge significantly less than £8k for a survey.

AskAsk

zoezipper2011 said:

AskAsk said:

red flags every where.  be very cautious.  i would instruct a structural engineer if you are thinking of going ahead.

Thanks for your response. We have asked for a structural survey to be carried out. 

a structural engineer would cost between £1,500 to £2,000 i would reckon.  i can't see where the vendor is getting the £8,000 from.  i would instruct the structural engineer myself rather than rely on the seller to do so.

Marshaltown

Based on previous experience, some years ago, presumably the same principals still apply. The vendor should claim on their Buildings Insurance cover (assuming they are insured). The damage will be investigated etc and if its proven to be subsidence then a number of measures will be taken. But the point is, usually, you can still purchase the property ASSUMING  you take over the existing Buildings Insurance policy from the vendor and your mortgage lenders are satisfied with this arrangement. Otherwise, should you buy the property and then take out new Buildings Insurance cover then the current subsidence issue would not be covered under your policy as it would be classed as an existing peril.

Annemos

Oh no this looks very difficult, is all I can say. Especially if you are paying more for this. The worries you are having now will be small compared to the worries you may have afterwards if you buy it. My feeling is now that this has been flagged, the house owner needs to take it off the market and get it sorted out before they try and sell it again. 
Subsidence is a nightmare!  

zoezipper2011

Thanks everyone for your replies, this has been very helpful.

Our strategy is to get a structural engineer to confirm if there is subsidence.

In the meantime, the vendor has provided their valuation report from when they bought the property over 14 years ago which states “some old cracks were noted to front bay brickwork, which appeared long standing and non-progressive”. 

The report does not show pictures, however, I am sure it is the same area as the one noted in our building survey. 

Also, the vendor has provided a valuation report, not a building survey.  

This is helpful but does not confirm if the cracks are related to subsidence. 

Please note our report does not use the word subsidence, it just mentions cracks and movement to the brickwork.

Annemos said:

Oh no this looks very difficult, is all I can say. Especially if you are paying more for this. The worries you are having now will be small compared to the worries you may have afterwards if you buy it. My feeling is now that this has been flagged, the house owner needs to take it off the market and get it sorted out before they try and sell it again. 
Subsidence is a nightmare!  

Annemos said:

Oh no this looks very difficult, is all I can say. Especially if you are paying more for this. The worries you are having now will be small compared to the worries you may have afterwards if you buy it. My feeling is now that this has been flagged, the house owner needs to take it off the market and get it sorted out before they try and sell it again. 
Subsidence is a nightmare!  

zoezipper2011

Thanks everyone for your replies, this has been very helpful.

Our strategy is to get a structural engineer to confirm if there is subsidence.

In the meantime, the vendor has provided their valuation report from when they bought the property over 14 years ago which states “some old cracks were noted to front bay brickwork, which appeared long standing and non-progressive”. 

The report does not show pictures, however, I am sure it is the same area as the one noted in our building survey. 

Also, the vendor has provided a valuation report, not a building survey.  

This is helpful but does not confirm if the cracks are related to subsidence. 

Please note our report does not use the word subsidence, it just mentions cracks and movement to the brickwork.

zoezipper2011 said:

AskAsk said:

red flags every where.  be very cautious.  i would instruct a structural engineer if you are thinking of going ahead.

Thanks for your response. We have asked for a structural survey to be carried out. 

zoezipper2011 said:

AskAsk said:

red flags every where.  be very cautious.  i would instruct a structural engineer if you are thinking of going ahead.

Thanks for your response. We have asked for a structural survey to be carried out. 

zoezipper2011 said:

AskAsk said:

red flags every where.  be very cautious.  i would instruct a structural engineer if you are thinking of going ahead.

Thanks for your response. We have asked for a structural survey to be carried out. 

ChewyyBacca said:

All I can see £££ sign in Dark red.. meaning bleeding money.
1. You will have to disclose this information to your insurer, when you are buying Home and contents insurance. Many of them would not be inclined to offer you one, your house being adverse selection and all that, and the ones ready to insure will charge you an eye-watering sum.
2. If the survey has shown potential subsidence, underpinning could cost you a great deal in the near future. You cannot delay this, since this can cause more structural damage to the house. Most of it will be recovered through insurance, if you happen to get one.
3. When you are ready to sell the house, you are duty-bound to disclose that the house has been underpinned in the past. That declaration itself should be enough to drive away any half sane person. People are okay with upper doer properties, but subsidence is something that is always treated like the plague.
If the structural engineer comes back with positive news, you would have only shelled out £8K, apart from paying the over asking price and the hassle of a tussle with the mortgage issuers since they don't like the word subsidence either.
Hope this helps. Wish you luck.

ChewyyBacca said:

All I can see £££ sign in Dark red.. meaning bleeding money.
1. You will have to disclose this information to your insurer, when you are buying Home and contents insurance. Many of them would not be inclined to offer you one, your house being adverse selection and all that, and the ones ready to insure will charge you an eye-watering sum.
2. If the survey has shown potential subsidence, underpinning could cost you a great deal in the near future. You cannot delay this, since this can cause more structural damage to the house. Most of it will be recovered through insurance, if you happen to get one.
3. When you are ready to sell the house, you are duty-bound to disclose that the house has been underpinned in the past. That declaration itself should be enough to drive away any half sane person. People are okay with upper doer properties, but subsidence is something that is always treated like the plague.
If the structural engineer comes back with positive news, you would have only shelled out £8K, apart from paying the over asking price and the hassle of a tussle with the mortgage issuers since they don't like the word subsidence either.
Hope this helps. Wish you luck.

ChewyyBacca said:

All I can see £££ sign in Dark red.. meaning bleeding money.
1. You will have to disclose this information to your insurer, when you are buying Home and contents insurance. Many of them would not be inclined to offer you one, your house being adverse selection and all that, and the ones ready to insure will charge you an eye-watering sum.
2. If the survey has shown potential subsidence, underpinning could cost you a great deal in the near future. You cannot delay this, since this can cause more structural damage to the house. Most of it will be recovered through insurance, if you happen to get one.
3. When you are ready to sell the house, you are duty-bound to disclose that the house has been underpinned in the past. That declaration itself should be enough to drive away any half sane person. People are okay with upper doer properties, but subsidence is something that is always treated like the plague.
If the structural engineer comes back with positive news, you would have only shelled out £8K, apart from paying the over asking price and the hassle of a tussle with the mortgage issuers since they don't like the word subsidence either.
Hope this helps. Wish you luck.

thearchitect said:

A structural engineer will charge significantly less than £8k for a survey.

AskAsk said:

zoezipper2011 said:

AskAsk said:

red flags every where.  be very cautious.  i would instruct a structural engineer if you are thinking of going ahead.

Thanks for your response. We have asked for a structural survey to be carried out. 

a structural engineer would cost between £1,500 to £2,000 i would reckon.  i can't see where the vendor is getting the £8,000 from.  i would instruct the structural engineer myself rather than rely on the seller to do so.

Annemos

My particular worry is the mention of a tree. Is the property on clay soil? How big is the tree and at what distance? Also how old is the tree? 
All those questions would have an effect on how any subsidence should be dealt and also what should be done with the tree (if it is the tree that is causing any subsidence.) 

It is often a problem getting the owner to act. It could be in Local Authority ownership or a private owner. If LA, then investigations would need to be done to see if the tree roots could be found under the foundations etc. Our LA is not doing any ongoing maintenance of trees and they get bigger and bigger with the years.