Wondering about change to low emission vehicles

Herzlos

You'll be able to charge up EV's almost anywhere with electricity - driveways, supermarkets, shopping centres, train stations, offices, car parks, etc. For those people who seemingly have a car but don't take it anywhere, there will still be the equivalent of petrol stations that'd need to be visited every few weeks (average mileage is under 15/day so a 300 mile batter means 2-3 weeks between charges).  It'll take longer than filling up with petrol but you don't need to stand and hold the cable - go grab a coffee, wander around, check email or whatever. Range and charging time will have improved drastically in another 15 years.

It's also worth noting that you don't need to fully charge anywhere. Charging in an Asda car park for 30 minutes might give you enough power to cover your return trip, and so on.

There aren't many charging points right now, because the percentage of EV's is pretty low, but over time as the balance shifts you'll see more and more of them appearing until they become essentially everywhere.

Solar panels are surprisingly effective in most of the UK too, I'm pretty far North and have seen quite a few appear. Even a solar panel on a car may be able to generate about 4 miles of range per hour on a good day (based on current tech, not 2035).

ElephantBoy57

Herzlos said:

 Even a solar panel on a car may be able to generate about 4 miles of range per hour on a good day (based on current tech, not 2035).

I find that difficult to believe. So my eight panels on my roof should power an electric car for 32 miles per day.

CasualBagger

You're not considering that most people don't reach anywhere near the EV range for daily runabout driving and would likely only need one charge a week... This could be while doing the Tesco shopping and having a coffee on a Saturday.

I live in a block of flats with 100 underground parking spaces. No charging points. Someone still manages with a BMW i8. 

DrEskimo

CasualBagger said:

You're not considering that most people don't reach anywhere near the EV range for daily runabout driving and would likely only need one charge a week... This could be while doing the Tesco shopping and having a coffee on a Saturday.

I live in a block of flats with 100 underground parking spaces. No charging points. Someone still manages with a BMW i8. 

I've managed the last 18months with an EV and no home charging, as I live in a terraced house where I have to park in any free space in the surrounding roads.

My EV only has a range of 130-170 too. When I was doing low mileage I would just charge it while doing my usual things. Out shopping, gym, etc. Mostly charge at my parents when I visit though.

I then got a job with a substantial 80mile daily commute and was able to keep it as the offices had chargers.

Ditzy_Mitzy

The issue, in all likelihood, is going to be one of lack of capacity within the National Grid rather than one of numbers of sockets to plug electric cars into.  The i newspaper recently claimed that we, as a nation, will need to generate 80% more electricity than we presently do in order to charge up a fully electrified vehicle fleet equivalent in size to the current oil fired one.  Some of that may come from wind and solar power, but the sheer quantity of additional electricity needed will, I think, create a need for more conventional power stations.  Nuclear is the obvious choice, but nobody wants to live near one.  It's taken years for approval to be given for Hinkley Point C, and the project proposes to use Chinese technology.  That's possibly going to be off the cards, what with Huawei and all, and we haven't got our own technology.  The old type, pressurised water reactors, are now in the process of being decommissioned and they were the last indigenous British designs.  We've not done anything appreciable since Thatcher and Major dismantled the public nuclear research establishments.  We could import electricity, but we won't be in the EU and France, if it electrifies its cars too, will want to keep the power for itself.  Oil or coal?Rather absurd, given that such a station would be far more polluting that the internal combustion engine cars it exists in lieu of.  There's going to be some sort of electrical critical point, whereby the grid won't be able to feed any more electric cars.  We're already importing electricity from abroad, as we've stripped huge amounts of generating capacity out: Sizewell and Bradwell plus coal and gas stations all over the country.
I imagine that we'll continue much as we are, with a mixture of electric cars, hybrids and good old fashioned petrol.  

DrEskimo

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

The issue, in all likelihood, is going to be one of lack of capacity within the National Grid rather than one of numbers of sockets to plug electric cars into.  The i newspaper recently claimed that we, as a nation, will need to generate 80% more electricity than we presently do in order to charge up a fully electrified vehicle fleet equivalent in size to the current oil fired one.  Some of that may come from wind and solar power, but the sheer quantity of additional electricity needed will, I think, create a need for more conventional power stations.  Nuclear is the obvious choice, but nobody wants to live near one.  It's taken years for approval to be given for Hinkley Point C, and the project proposes to use Chinese technology.  That's possibly going to be off the cards, what with Huawei and all, and we haven't got our own technology.  The old type, pressurised water reactors, are now in the process of being decommissioned and they were the last indigenous British designs.  We've not done anything appreciable since Thatcher and Major dismantled the public nuclear research establishments.  We could import electricity, but we won't be in the EU and France, if it electrifies its cars too, will want to keep the power for itself.  Oil or coal?Rather absurd, given that such a station would be far more polluting that the internal combustion engine cars it exists in lieu of.  There's going to be some sort of electrical critical point, whereby the grid won't be able to feed any more electric cars.  We're already importing electricity from abroad, as we've stripped huge amounts of generating capacity out: Sizewell and Bradwell plus coal and gas stations all over the country.
I imagine that we'll continue much as we are, with a mixture of electric cars, hybrids and good old fashioned petrol.  

Why are you relying on the i newspaper for your information about the national grid? Why not look at what the National Grid actually say...?

"Even if the impossible happened and we all switched to EVs overnight, we think demand would only increase by around 10 per cent. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002 and this is well within the range of manageable load fluctuation."

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted

The 80% I imagine is based on every single EV in the nation all plugging in at peak demand simultaneously....i.e the same problem you would have if everyone turned on their kettle at the same time during peak time.

This is not likely to be an issue as you wouldn't charge your car during peak demand. You would plug it in a schedule for it charge during off peak times, when energy demand is low and cleanest. Why? Because it's cheap! Cleaner energy is cheaper! Some tariffs alert you to let you know that energy companies will pay you to use energy over night!

Far from being a problem, EVs are a great solution to balancing energy loads. The key is smart charging and vehicle to grid technology.

MinuteNoodles

Highland76 said:

daveyjp said:

  Does everyone who owns a petrol car have a petrol pump on their drive?

So you're saying you can just pop into your nearest EV charging station first thing in the morning (eg on your way to work) and charge your EV from 10% to 100% in 5 mins, like you can with a petrol/diesel vehicle? That might indeed be the normal in 50 years from now, but pretty sure it can't be done yet with any EV.

The battery technology is improving to the point it may be possible and one of the developments coming down the pipeline involves being able to increase charge rates. You can already charge a Tesla by 50% in 20 minutes at a supercharging station, it would come as no surprise that in 5 years that time is halved.

MinuteNoodles

DrEskimo said:

"Even if the impossible happened and we all switched to EVs overnight, we think demand would only increase by around 10 per cent. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002

I don't think people understand just how much less we use than we used to. Changing from normal incandescent 100W bulb to a low energy one which is just 8W to provide the same amount of light you're reducing the amount of electricity you use by a whopping 92% for lighting your home. My 55" TV uses less electricity than my old 22" CRT TV used to use. Appliances are much more efficient than they used to be, even street lighting is now going to LED etc. The manufacturing company I work at which has a site with 9 factories and trailer parking for over 150 lorry trailers changed all their outdoor lighting to LED, saving them a fortune. Before then you could tell where the company was from 20 miles away just by looking for the bright orange glow in the sky which was actually brighter than that of the street lights of the town it is at the edge of.

Jonesya

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

The issue, in all likelihood, is going to be one of lack of capacity within the National Grid rather than one of numbers of sockets to plug electric cars into.  The i newspaper recently claimed that we, as a nation, will need to generate 80% more electricity than we presently do in order to charge up a fully electrified vehicle fleet equivalent in size to the current oil fired one.  Some of that may come from wind and solar power, but the sheer quantity of additional electricity needed will, I think, create a need for more conventional power stations.  

These kind of predictions and forecasts exaggerate the problem because they tend to assume the change occurs as a sudden switch, without time to adapt and respond but of course it isn't like that. EV numbers will rise steadily over many years and that provides time to respond - to invest in upgrading networks, new generation and to introduce new energy tariffs and smart controls to use the capacity available more efficiently.

The simplest change we may see is that electricity tariffs will start to reflect the true cost of supplying you with energy rather than a flat rate, where people under-pay during the peak hours then over-pay for the rest of the day. If people start having to pay the true cost of the energy, you'll see people start shifting their consumption to the lower cost periods, particularly when the EVs and appliances have some smart controls to do it automatically for them and save them money. 

Car_54

DrEskimo said:

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

The issue, in all likelihood, is going to be one of lack of capacity within the National Grid rather than one of numbers of sockets to plug electric cars into.  The i newspaper recently claimed that we, as a nation, will need to generate 80% more electricity than we presently do in order to charge up a fully electrified vehicle fleet equivalent in size to the current oil fired one.  Some of that may come from wind and solar power, but the sheer quantity of additional electricity needed will, I think, create a need for more conventional power stations.  Nuclear is the obvious choice, but nobody wants to live near one.  It's taken years for approval to be given for Hinkley Point C, and the project proposes to use Chinese technology.  That's possibly going to be off the cards, what with Huawei and all, and we haven't got our own technology.  The old type, pressurised water reactors, are now in the process of being decommissioned and they were the last indigenous British designs.  We've not done anything appreciable since Thatcher and Major dismantled the public nuclear research establishments.  We could import electricity, but we won't be in the EU and France, if it electrifies its cars too, will want to keep the power for itself.  Oil or coal?Rather absurd, given that such a station would be far more polluting that the internal combustion engine cars it exists in lieu of.  There's going to be some sort of electrical critical point, whereby the grid won't be able to feed any more electric cars.  We're already importing electricity from abroad, as we've stripped huge amounts of generating capacity out: Sizewell and Bradwell plus coal and gas stations all over the country.
I imagine that we'll continue much as we are, with a mixture of electric cars, hybrids and good old fashioned petrol.  

The 80% I imagine is based on every single EV in the nation all plugging in at peak demand simultaneously....i.e the same problem you would have if everyone turned on their kettle at the same time during peak time.

Or if every petrol and diesel vehicle needed to fill up at the same time. The queues would be unmanageable, and the system would grind to a halt.