Do package Holiday firms have to cancel?

epm-84

@Butts - You seem to be getting package holiday refunds and airline refunds mixed up.  The package holiday companies are struggling to pay refunds in a timely manner as like consumers, they are struggling to get refunds from the airlines, so yes point the finger of blame at airlines like Ryanair but Ryanair are creating problems for ABTA members, opposed to being an ABTA member themselves. 

ABTA did ask for voucher refunds but the idea was that the voucher would be issued immediately so if your holiday was cancelled you could choose and book an equivalent alternative straight away without waiting for a refund to be processed, they also proposed the voucher would have an expiry date and if the customer had not booked an alternative holiday or had remaining credit on the voucher by that expiry date then they would get their money back automatically.  Unfortunately, the government were too slow to respond to ABTA so some (not all) package holiday companies purposely delayed processing refunds until the latest possible date as they were hoping for a positive response from the ABTA proposal.  If the government had said no to ABTA from the outset then some people would have got their refunds sooner.

Also don't forget some holiday companies have gone out-of-business due to COVID-19 - Shearings being one of the most high profile ones, they don't all have big cash reserves!

bagand96

epm-84 said:

Also don't forget some holiday companies have gone out-of-business due to COVID-19 - Shearings being one of the most high profile ones, they don't all have big cash reserves!

A lot of people seem to think that all these travel companies have hundred's of millions £££ sat around in the bank, available to refund back to consumers within 7 or 14 days.  

Unfortunately I fear the bloodbath hasn't even started yet for the travel industry.  Holiday companies and leisure orientated airlines tend to go bump at the end of the summer season.  The cash is rolling in during the summer season, it's the winter that causes problems - bills are due to be paid, and income is low. Trouble with summer 2020 is nobody's made any money.

Butts

epm-84 said:

@Butts - You seem to be getting package holiday refunds and airline refunds mixed up.  The package holiday companies are struggling to pay refunds in a timely manner as like consumers, they are struggling to get refunds from the airlines, so yes point the finger of blame at airlines like Ryanair but Ryanair are creating problems for ABTA members, opposed to being an ABTA member themselves. 

ABTA did ask for voucher refunds but the idea was that the voucher would be issued immediately so if your holiday was cancelled you could choose and book an equivalent alternative straight away without waiting for a refund to be processed, they also proposed the voucher would have an expiry date and if the customer had not booked an alternative holiday or had remaining credit on the voucher by that expiry date then they would get their money back automatically.  Unfortunately, the government were too slow to respond to ABTA so some (not all) package holiday companies purposely delayed processing refunds until the latest possible date as they were hoping for a positive response from the ABTA proposal.  If the government had said no to ABTA from the outset then some people would have got their refunds sooner.

Also don't forget some holiday companies have gone out-of-business due to COVID-19 - Shearings being one of the most high profile ones, they don't all have big cash reserves!

With respect I've had Package Holiday Refunds from Lastminute.com (chargeback deposit only less than a week) British Airways - Spanish trip to replace LM USA one (within a week no quibble when FCO advice changed)

Flights only Ryanair (chargeback within a week of application after waiting two months)
Flights only British Airways ( within a week when cancelled by BA)
Flights only British Airways  ( FTV for Luxembourg Flights and a voucher from Ibis for Hotel both within a week) - Butts !!!!!! up if I'd booked both as a package with BA would have got the cash back !!

It was not just The Government that said no to vouchers the EU did as well....

If you see the way someone like Lastminute.com have conducted themselves during the current pandemic they definitely deserve to go under. Just look at their ratings on Trustpilot or anecdotal evidence on here.

TUI, Jet2, Easyjet Holidays , BA Holidays and a few other operators have come good , the real cowboys are the third party agents who cannot be surprised if consumers exercise the full force of the law to bring them to book. Honestly you have to deal with one of them to realise how bad they are.

bagand96

Butts said:

If you see the way someone like Lastminute.com have conducted themselves during the current pandemic they definitely deserve to go under. Just look at their ratings on Trustpilot or anecdotal evidence on here.

Lastminute.com haven't become a shoddy agent in the midst of Covid-19! They've been one for years, and their reviews long before March 2020 would have testified to that.  It never fails to surprise me how people will handover thousands of pounds to online companies without realising exactly what they're buying, or the quality of the supplier they are using.

There are subtle differences between some of the companies you mention, and it does affect their handling of the crisis.  TUI and Jet2 for example are proper tour operators in the traditional sense.  They sell you a holiday.  They are in full control of the flight, usually on their own aircraft, they have a contract directly with the hotels, even with the bus company to get you from the airport to the hotel.  This means they can be quicker to react to the situation because they control it all.  Also reputationally they are more likely to cancel holidays.

BA Holidays (and newcomer easyJet) are similar.  Airlines first and foremost but they also contract with hotels (directly or via intermediaries) to make a package with their flights.  Again it gives them a certain amount of control over the situation to react.

The plethora of online travel agents are different.  They're just a web platform.  They take a flight from any airline, a hotel from any hotel or intermediary, throw them together and bang it's a package holiday!  However they're not a tour operator they're simply a package arranger.  Yes the Package Travel Regulations give certain protections and rights to the consumer - but the company are at the behest of primarily the airlines but also the hotel suppliers.  They've paid the airline upfront  - and if the airline take 3 months to refund - or worse don't even cancel the flight - it leaves them very exposed with very little control over the situation.

Butts

bagand96 said:

Butts said:

If you see the way someone like Lastminute.com have conducted themselves during the current pandemic they definitely deserve to go under. Just look at their ratings on Trustpilot or anecdotal evidence on here.

Lastminute.com haven't become a shoddy agent in the midst of Covid-19! They've been one for years, and their reviews long before March 2020 would have testified to that.  It never fails to surprise me how people will handover thousands of pounds to online companies without realising exactly what they're buying, or the quality of the supplier they are using.

There are subtle differences between some of the companies you mention, and it does affect their handling of the crisis.  TUI and Jet2 for example are proper tour operators in the traditional sense.  They sell you a holiday.  They are in full control of the flight, usually on their own aircraft, they have a contract directly with the hotels, even with the bus company to get you from the airport to the hotel.  This means they can be quicker to react to the situation because they control it all.  Also reputationally they are more likely to cancel holidays.

BA Holidays (and newcomer easyJet) are similar.  Airlines first and foremost but they also contract with hotels (directly or via intermediaries) to make a package with their flights.  Again it gives them a certain amount of control over the situation to react.

The plethora of online travel agents are different.  They're just a web platform.  They take a flight from any airline, a hotel from any hotel or intermediary, throw them together and bang it's a package holiday!  However they're not a tour operator they're simply a package arranger.  Yes the Package Travel Regulations give certain protections and rights to the consumer - but the company are at the behest of primarily the airlines but also the hotel suppliers.  They've paid the airline upfront  - and if the airline take 3 months to refund - or worse don't even cancel the flight - it leaves them very exposed with very little control over the situation.

I take on board what you are saying and can't disagree with most of it.

With regard to Lastminute.com even now after months of poor reviews on Trustpilot somehow their 5 Stars Ratings are double the level of 1 Stars. This calls into question the integrity of that site.

Regarding the third party operators I would be happy to see them all go bust and have major realignment of the way Holidays are organised. The money should be ring fenced and current income for future bookings  should not be used to pay for todays  vacations. Perhaps they should have to provide a bond to protect clients money.

It may cost us all a bit more but for the security I think it would be worth it.

None of this deviates from the fact that the PTR's are there for a purpose to protect consumers in the event of problems. ABTA are largely irrelevant and merely a mouthpiece for the Industry. I have lucky in that I have been able to obtain refunds by utilising the law and not attempting to abuse it like some operators have.

bagand96

Butts said:

Regarding the third party operators I would be happy to see them all go bust and have major realignment of the way Holidays are organised. The money should be ring fenced and current income for future bookings  should not be used to pay for todays  vacations. Perhaps they should have to provide a bond to protect clients money.

They do - it's called ATOL.  It protects against the failure of the travel agent, tour operator, or airline.

Ringfencing money until the date of travel would be problematic.  When air tickets are booked, the majority of them need to be paid almost immediately to the airline for the ticket to be issued.  So the agents don't sit on the money.  Forcing agents to ringfence consumer funds would render it virtually impossible for them to do business.  Airlines might not mind it - would force everyone to book directly - be careful what you wish for!

Butts said:

 ABTA are largely irrelevant and merely a mouthpiece for the Industry. 

Well they are the Association of British Travel Agents after all.  They're not the Association of British Holidaymakers.

Butts said:

It may cost us all a bit more but for the security I think it would be worth it.

It's at the forefront of everyone's mind right now because so many people are affected and experiencing issues.  I'm not dismissing your points.  Many people will agree it could be done differently, it should be further regulated etc.  But consumers have very short memory. People will be back, they'll be throwing money at cheapo-travel-deals.biz or whoever because they're £10 cheaper than the next company!

eskbanker

Butts said:

Well if a pandemic is not an "unavoidable and extraordinary circumstance" that can significantly affect both "the performance of the package" and the "carriage of passengers to the destination" I don't know what is.

It seemed clear cut enough for Jet 2, TUI and Easyjet Holidays amongst others to cancel all packages to Spain when the Government advice changed. Both this Site and The Consumers Association (Which ?) have been saying the same long before ABTA jumped on the bandwagon.

Remember this is the same ABTA (friend of the Holidaymaker!!) that was lobbying the Government to allow Companies to give out vouchers for cancelled flights and packages rather than the cash refunds they were entitled to.

You're missing the point - I was correcting your false assertion that the PTRs grant refund rights specifically relating to FCO advice, when they clearly don't.  You're choosing an interpretation of what they actually do say and seem to believe that MSE endorses your view, even though they cite ABTA and specify the requirement for significant change to trigger refund rights - I'm not even saying that this interpretation is necessarily wrong as such but highlighting that it's at least debatable rather than the statement of fact that you take it as, so to claim that there's a legal right to a refund when the FCO advises against travel isn't borne out by facts, even if it's supported by some opinions.

Clearly the fact that some providers have cancelled holidays or offered refunds doesn't affect the legal position in any way....

Butts said:
According to Eskbanker they are the Knight on a White Charger riding in to the rescue of the consumer, notwithstanding the fact MSE and Which ? beat them to it by some considerable margin.

Eh?  I'm not banging the drum for ABTA here but do consider their recent intervention as significant, given their role as a supervisory body who adjudicate on complaints about the actions of their members - they're obviously not regulators as such but have a more direct impact on travel agents than MSE or Which?, so their decision last week is unquestionably to the benefit of consumers, whereas MSE and Which? were essentially just opining in a vacuum.

In other words, it's far more powerful and effective for an unhappy customer to highlight to an agent that they're going against their trade body's steer, and will therefore receive an escalated complaint accordingly, than it would be to say to them that you'd read something speculative on MSE or Which?

Butts

eskbanker said:

Butts said:

Well if a pandemic is not an "unavoidable and extraordinary circumstance" that can significantly affect both "the performance of the package" and the "carriage of passengers to the destination" I don't know what is.

It seemed clear cut enough for Jet 2, TUI and Easyjet Holidays amongst others to cancel all packages to Spain when the Government advice changed. Both this Site and The Consumers Association (Which ?) have been saying the same long before ABTA jumped on the bandwagon.

Remember this is the same ABTA (friend of the Holidaymaker!!) that was lobbying the Government to allow Companies to give out vouchers for cancelled flights and packages rather than the cash refunds they were entitled to.

You're missing the point - I was correcting your false assertion that the PTRs grant refund rights specifically relating to FCO advice, when they clearly don't.  You're choosing an interpretation of what they actually do say and seem to believe that MSE endorses your view, even though they cite ABTA and specify the requirement for significant change to trigger refund rights - I'm not even saying that this interpretation is necessarily wrong as such but highlighting that it's at least debatable rather than the statement of fact that you take it as, so to claim that there's a legal right to a refund when the FCO advises against travel isn't borne out by facts, even if it's supported by some opinions.

Clearly the fact that some providers have cancelled holidays or offered refunds doesn't affect the legal position in any way....

Butts said:
According to Eskbanker they are the Knight on a White Charger riding in to the rescue of the consumer, notwithstanding the fact MSE and Which ? beat them to it by some considerable margin.

Eh?  I'm not banging the drum for ABTA here but do consider their recent intervention as significant, given their role as a supervisory body who adjudicate on complaints about the actions of their members - they're obviously not regulators as such but have a more direct impact on travel agents than MSE or Which?, so their decision last week is unquestionably to the benefit of consumers, whereas MSE and Which? were essentially just opining in a vacuum.

In other words, it's far more powerful and effective for an unhappy customer to highlight to an agent that they're going against their trade body's steer, and will therefore receive an escalated complaint accordingly, than it would be to say to them that you'd read something speculative on MSE or Which?

Okay "Sir Lancelot" !! 
We should not start fighting amongst ourselves and I am sure you are as keen as me to explore every avenue that may result in a consumer being to able to exercise their right to obtain a refund in a timely and efficient manner. 

This involves utilising all the tools at your disposal, the more the merrier.

In that regard I concede ABTA's intervention can be viewed in a positive light.

epm-84

Butts said:

epm-84 said:

@Butts - You seem to be getting package holiday refunds and airline refunds mixed up.  The package holiday companies are struggling to pay refunds in a timely manner as like consumers, they are struggling to get refunds from the airlines, so yes point the finger of blame at airlines like Ryanair but Ryanair are creating problems for ABTA members, opposed to being an ABTA member themselves. 

ABTA did ask for voucher refunds but the idea was that the voucher would be issued immediately so if your holiday was cancelled you could choose and book an equivalent alternative straight away without waiting for a refund to be processed, they also proposed the voucher would have an expiry date and if the customer had not booked an alternative holiday or had remaining credit on the voucher by that expiry date then they would get their money back automatically.  Unfortunately, the government were too slow to respond to ABTA so some (not all) package holiday companies purposely delayed processing refunds until the latest possible date as they were hoping for a positive response from the ABTA proposal.  If the government had said no to ABTA from the outset then some people would have got their refunds sooner.

Also don't forget some holiday companies have gone out-of-business due to COVID-19 - Shearings being one of the most high profile ones, they don't all have big cash reserves!

With respect I've had Package Holiday Refunds from Lastminute.com (chargeback deposit only less than a week) British Airways - Spanish trip to replace LM USA one (within a week no quibble when FCO advice changed)

Flights only Ryanair (chargeback within a week of application after waiting two months)
Flights only British Airways ( within a week when cancelled by BA)
Flights only British Airways  ( FTV for Luxembourg Flights and a voucher from Ibis for Hotel both within a week) - Butts !!!!!! up if I'd booked both as a package with BA would have got the cash back !!

It was not just The Government that said no to vouchers the EU did as well....

If you see the way someone like Lastminute.com have conducted themselves during the current pandemic they definitely deserve to go under. Just look at their ratings on Trustpilot or anecdotal evidence on here.

TUI, Jet2, Easyjet Holidays , BA Holidays and a few other operators have come good , the real cowboys are the third party agents who cannot be surprised if consumers exercise the full force of the law to bring them to book. Honestly you have to deal with one of them to realise how bad they are.

Like I said you're mixing up package holidays and airline bookings.  

For flights starting or ending in EU+ countries, an EU directive applies which requires refunds for cancelled flights within 7 days.  Local laws cannot override that

For hotel bookings made directly with a hotel local laws apply.  For a UK hotel booking the CMA has said if you cannot access the hotel due to lockdown restrictions you must be given a full refund.  In the case of some EU countries they've passed laws allowing hotels to issue vouchers instead of refunds even if they aren't open or accessible but that's only relevant if you've paid the hotel directly (which you will have done if you booked through booking.com.)

ABTA and ATOL only apply for packages consisting of flights and hotel bookings.

It would be especially bad if TUI, Jet2 Holidays, Easyjet Holidays or BA Holidays were not among the best for issuing refunds in a timely manner, considering they won't exactly be waiting on a third party to refund flights, which the likes of Lastminute, OnTheBeach etc. will.

I'm not sure of the relevance of quoting your chargebacks - that's where your bank has decided you haven't received the service you paid for, opposed to the provider refunding you.  You said you waited 2 months for Ryanair to issue a refund and then started a chargeback, what if you were a business waiting for hundreds or thousands of Ryanair refunds and hundreds or thousands of customers chasing you for the money which Ryanair still has?

Butts

Ryanair are not one of the providers short of a bob or two and could refund as quickly as British Airways if they wanted to, I gave them two months but paid the price for my altruism.

One missing example of a large Flight and Holiday provider that has behaved appallingly are Virgin Atlantic / Virgin Holidays who despite having control/access to Flights are taking an eternity to refund.

Quite ironic that Richard Branson was dead against any help for Flybe / Thomas Cook but soon had the begging bowl out when Virgin started to suffer. Also not normally camera shy he seems to have disappeared during the current pandemic.

120 Days for a refund is an unacceptable extension to the 7 Day/14 Day legal requirements. 

Amazingly, notwithstanding this, acolytes on The Dibb and other forums think the sun shines out of Bransons backside and are queuing up to book next year and make excuses for Virgin. Mention the fact BA are refunding in days induces apoplexy on their part which is hard to comprehend.