Do package Holiday firms have to cancel?

eskbanker

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

ABTA have now clarified that customers who've booked packages with one of their members should be offered refunds if the FCO advises against non-essential travel to the destination, at https://www.abta.com/news/abta-board-confirms-refund-obligation, so any ABTA member (including Ocean Elements) refusing to refund in these circumstances is now doing so against ABTA's steer:

ABTA Board confirms refund obligation

Following recent representations made to ABTA concerning package holiday customers’ refund entitlement in the event of Foreign Office advice against all but essential travel to a destination, the ABTA Board has met and confirmed that customers should be offered a full refund in such circumstances. In accordance with the Articles of the Association, the Board agreed unanimously that ABTA Members should offer refunds to their package holiday customers where the Foreign Office advises against travel at the time the customer is due to travel.

Although this is a welcome development far more important are your rights under The Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018 which already specified an FCO warning was enough for you to be able to cancel and claim a  full refund. This is a legal right.

But that's simply not true, they say nothing of the kind and that's why ABTA have had to step in.  The PTRs only make a vague statement about refund rights applying in the event of *unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances occurring at the place of destination or its immediate vicinity and which significantly affect (a) the performance of the package, or (b) the carriage of passengers to the destination" - some may be able to construct an argument that adverse FCO advice fits those criteria for their own circumstances but it's certainly not as cut and dried as you suggest....

epm-84

eskbanker said:

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

ABTA have now clarified that customers who've booked packages with one of their members should be offered refunds if the FCO advises against non-essential travel to the destination, at https://www.abta.com/news/abta-board-confirms-refund-obligation, so any ABTA member (including Ocean Elements) refusing to refund in these circumstances is now doing so against ABTA's steer:

ABTA Board confirms refund obligation

Following recent representations made to ABTA concerning package holiday customers’ refund entitlement in the event of Foreign Office advice against all but essential travel to a destination, the ABTA Board has met and confirmed that customers should be offered a full refund in such circumstances. In accordance with the Articles of the Association, the Board agreed unanimously that ABTA Members should offer refunds to their package holiday customers where the Foreign Office advises against travel at the time the customer is due to travel.

Although this is a welcome development far more important are your rights under The Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018 which already specified an FCO warning was enough for you to be able to cancel and claim a  full refund. This is a legal right.

But that's simply not true, they say nothing of the kind and that's why ABTA have had to step in.  The PTRs only make a vague statement about refund rights applying in the event of *unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances occurring at the place of destination or its immediate vicinity and which significantly affect (a) the performance of the package, or (b) the carriage of passengers to the destination" - some may be able to construct an argument that adverse FCO advice fits those criteria for their own circumstances but it's certainly not as cut and dried as you suggest....

The problem with FCO advice at the moment is it's changing very quickly and the advice is very different to normal.  If you think of Syria a few years ago the FCO issued advice against all travel and said all Britons there should return home immediately.  The advice then is very clear and in the unlikely event people were on package holidays to Syria then the providers would be responsible for curtailing existing holidays and cancelling new trips even if you were on your way to the airport as the advice changed.  It was also unlikely to change between someone's planned departure date and their planned return date.

In countries where COVID-19 cases are rising they are generally not saying that Britons must return home immediately but are instead saying those arriving home after xxxx must quarantine for 14 days.  There is also the strange situation where you could fly out on Thursday for 2 weeks, the day after you fly out the government might announce a 14 day quarantine which is still in place on your return date but then the day after you return they could lift the 14 day quarantine for new arrivals but you would still have to quarantine for 14 days!

Alan_Bowen

The website of Ocean Elements suggests they are anything but cowboys and are offering to postpone any holiday to 2021 if you do not wish to travel. Their promotion of ABTA membership ( and an ATOL licence for 20,000 passengers a year) indicates they will do the right thing if the FCO advice changes.

Butts

eskbanker said:

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

ABTA have now clarified that customers who've booked packages with one of their members should be offered refunds if the FCO advises against non-essential travel to the destination, at https://www.abta.com/news/abta-board-confirms-refund-obligation, so any ABTA member (including Ocean Elements) refusing to refund in these circumstances is now doing so against ABTA's steer:

ABTA Board confirms refund obligation

Following recent representations made to ABTA concerning package holiday customers’ refund entitlement in the event of Foreign Office advice against all but essential travel to a destination, the ABTA Board has met and confirmed that customers should be offered a full refund in such circumstances. In accordance with the Articles of the Association, the Board agreed unanimously that ABTA Members should offer refunds to their package holiday customers where the Foreign Office advises against travel at the time the customer is due to travel.

Although this is a welcome development far more important are your rights under The Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018 which already specified an FCO warning was enough for you to be able to cancel and claim a  full refund. This is a legal right.

But that's simply not true, they say nothing of the kind and that's why ABTA have had to step in.  The PTRs only make a vague statement about refund rights applying in the event of *unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances occurring at the place of destination or its immediate vicinity and which significantly affect (a) the performance of the package, or (b) the carriage of passengers to the destination" - some may be able to construct an argument that adverse FCO advice fits those criteria for their own circumstances but it's certainly not as cut and dried as you suggest....

Well if a pandemic is not an "unavoidable and extraordinary circumstance" that can significantly affect both "the performance of the package" and the "carriage of passengers to the destination" I don't know what is.

It seemed clear cut enough for Jet 2, TUI and Easyjet Holidays amongst others to cancel all packages to Spain when the Government advice changed. Both this Site and The Consumers Association (Which ?) have been saying the same long before ABTA jumped on the bandwagon.

Remember this is the same ABTA (friend of the Holidaymaker!!) that was lobbying the Government to allow Companies to give out vouchers for cancelled flights and packages rather than the cash refunds they were entitled to.

Thrugelmir

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

ABTA have now clarified that customers who've booked packages with one of their members should be offered refunds if the FCO advises against non-essential travel to the destination, at https://www.abta.com/news/abta-board-confirms-refund-obligation, so any ABTA member (including Ocean Elements) refusing to refund in these circumstances is now doing so against ABTA's steer:

ABTA Board confirms refund obligation

Following recent representations made to ABTA concerning package holiday customers’ refund entitlement in the event of Foreign Office advice against all but essential travel to a destination, the ABTA Board has met and confirmed that customers should be offered a full refund in such circumstances. In accordance with the Articles of the Association, the Board agreed unanimously that ABTA Members should offer refunds to their package holiday customers where the Foreign Office advises against travel at the time the customer is due to travel.

From anecdotal evidence ABTA have been as useful to most holidaymakers as an ashtray on a Motorbike.

ABTA is an industry body not a regulatory one. They can only advise their members not tell nor enforce. 

Thrugelmir

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

ABTA have now clarified that customers who've booked packages with one of their members should be offered refunds if the FCO advises against non-essential travel to the destination, at https://www.abta.com/news/abta-board-confirms-refund-obligation, so any ABTA member (including Ocean Elements) refusing to refund in these circumstances is now doing so against ABTA's steer:

ABTA Board confirms refund obligation

Following recent representations made to ABTA concerning package holiday customers’ refund entitlement in the event of Foreign Office advice against all but essential travel to a destination, the ABTA Board has met and confirmed that customers should be offered a full refund in such circumstances. In accordance with the Articles of the Association, the Board agreed unanimously that ABTA Members should offer refunds to their package holiday customers where the Foreign Office advises against travel at the time the customer is due to travel.

Although this is a welcome development far more important are your rights under The Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018 which already specified an FCO warning was enough for you to be able to cancel and claim a  full refund. This is a legal right.

But that's simply not true, they say nothing of the kind and that's why ABTA have had to step in.  The PTRs only make a vague statement about refund rights applying in the event of *unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances occurring at the place of destination or its immediate vicinity and which significantly affect (a) the performance of the package, or (b) the carriage of passengers to the destination" - some may be able to construct an argument that adverse FCO advice fits those criteria for their own circumstances but it's certainly not as cut and dried as you suggest....

Remember this is the same ABTA (friend of the Holidaymaker!!) that was lobbying the Government to allow Companies to give out vouchers for cancelled flights and packages rather than the cash refunds they were entitled to.

Where would the cash come from? Those further back in the queue would receive nothing. 

mattyprice4004

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

ABTA have now clarified that customers who've booked packages with one of their members should be offered refunds if the FCO advises against non-essential travel to the destination, at https://www.abta.com/news/abta-board-confirms-refund-obligation, so any ABTA member (including Ocean Elements) refusing to refund in these circumstances is now doing so against ABTA's steer:

ABTA Board confirms refund obligation

Following recent representations made to ABTA concerning package holiday customers’ refund entitlement in the event of Foreign Office advice against all but essential travel to a destination, the ABTA Board has met and confirmed that customers should be offered a full refund in such circumstances. In accordance with the Articles of the Association, the Board agreed unanimously that ABTA Members should offer refunds to their package holiday customers where the Foreign Office advises against travel at the time the customer is due to travel.

Although this is a welcome development far more important are your rights under The Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018 which already specified an FCO warning was enough for you to be able to cancel and claim a  full refund. This is a legal right.

But that's simply not true, they say nothing of the kind and that's why ABTA have had to step in.  The PTRs only make a vague statement about refund rights applying in the event of *unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances occurring at the place of destination or its immediate vicinity and which significantly affect (a) the performance of the package, or (b) the carriage of passengers to the destination" - some may be able to construct an argument that adverse FCO advice fits those criteria for their own circumstances but it's certainly not as cut and dried as you suggest....

Remember this is the same ABTA (friend of the Holidaymaker!!) that was lobbying the Government to allow Companies to give out vouchers for cancelled flights and packages rather than the cash refunds they were entitled to.

The alternative to this would be every company going bust, owing lots of money. Then no one gets vouchers OR a refund. 
While not ideal, the ABTA deal was the best thing for everyone. 

Butts

Thrugelmir said:

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

ABTA have now clarified that customers who've booked packages with one of their members should be offered refunds if the FCO advises against non-essential travel to the destination, at https://www.abta.com/news/abta-board-confirms-refund-obligation, so any ABTA member (including Ocean Elements) refusing to refund in these circumstances is now doing so against ABTA's steer:

ABTA Board confirms refund obligation

Following recent representations made to ABTA concerning package holiday customers’ refund entitlement in the event of Foreign Office advice against all but essential travel to a destination, the ABTA Board has met and confirmed that customers should be offered a full refund in such circumstances. In accordance with the Articles of the Association, the Board agreed unanimously that ABTA Members should offer refunds to their package holiday customers where the Foreign Office advises against travel at the time the customer is due to travel.

From anecdotal evidence ABTA have been as useful to most holidaymakers as an ashtray on a Motorbike.

ABTA is an industry body not a regulatory one. They can only advise their members not tell nor enforce. 

According to Eskbanker they are the Knight on a White Charger riding in to the rescue of the consumer, notwithstanding the fact MSE and Which ? beat them to it by some considerable margin.

Butts

Thrugelmir said:

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

ABTA have now clarified that customers who've booked packages with one of their members should be offered refunds if the FCO advises against non-essential travel to the destination, at https://www.abta.com/news/abta-board-confirms-refund-obligation, so any ABTA member (including Ocean Elements) refusing to refund in these circumstances is now doing so against ABTA's steer:

ABTA Board confirms refund obligation

Following recent representations made to ABTA concerning package holiday customers’ refund entitlement in the event of Foreign Office advice against all but essential travel to a destination, the ABTA Board has met and confirmed that customers should be offered a full refund in such circumstances. In accordance with the Articles of the Association, the Board agreed unanimously that ABTA Members should offer refunds to their package holiday customers where the Foreign Office advises against travel at the time the customer is due to travel.

Although this is a welcome development far more important are your rights under The Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018 which already specified an FCO warning was enough for you to be able to cancel and claim a  full refund. This is a legal right.

But that's simply not true, they say nothing of the kind and that's why ABTA have had to step in.  The PTRs only make a vague statement about refund rights applying in the event of *unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances occurring at the place of destination or its immediate vicinity and which significantly affect (a) the performance of the package, or (b) the carriage of passengers to the destination" - some may be able to construct an argument that adverse FCO advice fits those criteria for their own circumstances but it's certainly not as cut and dried as you suggest....

Remember this is the same ABTA (friend of the Holidaymaker!!) that was lobbying the Government to allow Companies to give out vouchers for cancelled flights and packages rather than the cash refunds they were entitled to.

Where would the cash come from? Those further back in the queue would receive nothing. 

Well it has come from somewhere judging by the refunds now being processed.
Some companies such as BA, Ryanair and Easy jet have always had the money but not always paid out.
Tui have had billions off the German Government.

How do you figure those at the back of the queue would get nothing ?
If they folded ATOL or Chargeback/Section 75 kick in - what inane scaremongering nonsense.

Butts

mattyprice4004 said:

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

Butts said:

eskbanker said:

ABTA have now clarified that customers who've booked packages with one of their members should be offered refunds if the FCO advises against non-essential travel to the destination, at https://www.abta.com/news/abta-board-confirms-refund-obligation, so any ABTA member (including Ocean Elements) refusing to refund in these circumstances is now doing so against ABTA's steer:

ABTA Board confirms refund obligation

Following recent representations made to ABTA concerning package holiday customers’ refund entitlement in the event of Foreign Office advice against all but essential travel to a destination, the ABTA Board has met and confirmed that customers should be offered a full refund in such circumstances. In accordance with the Articles of the Association, the Board agreed unanimously that ABTA Members should offer refunds to their package holiday customers where the Foreign Office advises against travel at the time the customer is due to travel.

Although this is a welcome development far more important are your rights under The Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018 which already specified an FCO warning was enough for you to be able to cancel and claim a  full refund. This is a legal right.

But that's simply not true, they say nothing of the kind and that's why ABTA have had to step in.  The PTRs only make a vague statement about refund rights applying in the event of *unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances occurring at the place of destination or its immediate vicinity and which significantly affect (a) the performance of the package, or (b) the carriage of passengers to the destination" - some may be able to construct an argument that adverse FCO advice fits those criteria for their own circumstances but it's certainly not as cut and dried as you suggest....

Remember this is the same ABTA (friend of the Holidaymaker!!) that was lobbying the Government to allow Companies to give out vouchers for cancelled flights and packages rather than the cash refunds they were entitled to.

The alternative to this would be every company going bust, owing lots of money. Then no one gets vouchers OR a refund. 
While not ideal, the ABTA deal was the best thing for everyone. 

Hogwash some of the companies have got substantial assets and if these proved insufficient ATOL/Chargeback/Section 75 kick in.
ABTA deal ? - do you mean recommendation ?