Solved - Bankrupt but bequeathed share of property

dave3dtg

Minkym00 said:

MalMonroe said:

Very sorry to hear about your Dad.

I also don't think it's a weird will at all. You may have shares in a property but it's all on paper right now and your Mum, frail though she may be, is still here. So at the moment it seems that you don't need to report anything to the OR. Nobody can make your Mum homeless because she owns a share of the home she lives in. And your debt isn't her debt so she doesn't have to worry about that.

When you actually become a recipient of your share, whatever and whenever that might be, will be the time to report it to the OR. 

This is incorrect and could leave you open to a (criminal) allegation of concealment of assets. It would be prudent to advise your OR straight away.

You became a beneficiary as soon as your dad passed away and, as it was within 12 months of your BO, it is “after acquired property” and forms part of your bankruptcy estate.  It can be years before a beneficiary actually sees any inheritance but you still need to declare it to the OR. In any case, even if you don’t, the executors have a legal duty to do so.

The OR will appoint an IP as your new trustee to look into this. With a trust involved it’s too complicated for an OR to manage. 

Why's there so much conflicting advice here?
I'm actually only a beneficiary when my mum passes. Her will mirrors my dad's will. Presently I and my brother's receive nothing and we are unable to sell the property or do something like equity release until my Mum passes.

dave3dtg

DCFC79 said:

dave3dtg said:

luvchocolate said:

Please take notice of Minkys reply...they know their stuff 

I have...to the extent that taking an overdose seems like the best option for me to save my Mum from so much pain and anguish, to save my children from any further burdens I might inflict on them and to save my brother's from the burden that is me.
Minkys reply describes something so alien to this world. It describes something that is pure, unadulterated evil. To perform those actions and potentially  kill an old lady who's lived in her house for 58 years for 65K is truelly despicable. To have a claim on just 8.33% and use it to cause so much pain is abhorant. They can't even let her live out her life with dignity. It's not even her debt. I've never quite understood what drives people to suicide...I do now.

Dont take that drastic action, you have children, a parent.
Ring 1 of the relevant charities and speak to them.

Thank you butIbut won't have a parent if she is forced from her home for a debt she doesn't owe and for which both her and my dad were completely unaware that they had committed to pay. My death would mean my children will benefit. The only way to stop this evil occuring is to pay my bankruptcy off but there is no way of raising 65K. The vast majority of which is statute barred. There is only one way to keep my mum in her home and that is my death.

SpreadableToast

dave3dtg said:

DCFC79 said:

dave3dtg said:

luvchocolate said:

Please take notice of Minkys reply...they know their stuff 

I have...to the extent that taking an overdose seems like the best option for me to save my Mum from so much pain and anguish, to save my children from any further burdens I might inflict on them and to save my brother's from the burden that is me.
Minkys reply describes something so alien to this world. It describes something that is pure, unadulterated evil. To perform those actions and potentially  kill an old lady who's lived in her house for 58 years for 65K is truelly despicable. To have a claim on just 8.33% and use it to cause so much pain is abhorant. They can't even let her live out her life with dignity. It's not even her debt. I've never quite understood what drives people to suicide...I do now.

Dont take that drastic action, you have children, a parent.
Ring 1 of the relevant charities and speak to them.

Thank you butIbut won't have a parent if she is forced from her home for a debt she doesn't owe and for which both her and my dad were completely unaware that they had committed to pay. My death would mean my children will benefit. The only way to stop this evil occuring is to pay my bankruptcy off but there is no way of raising 65K. The vast majority of which is statute barred. There is only one way to keep my mum in her home and that is my death.

The OR's interest in the property started when your father passed away.  Killing yourself won't do anything to change that.

If you are really being serious then do as other posters have suggested and speak to a charity.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/suicide/

luvchocolate

I'm sure no one will be making your Mum homeless. 
Please contact your OR on Monday. 
Some posters on here do work for the Insolvency service...others like me have been through BR and have learnt a little on the way. 
Some work at citizens advice..we are very fortunate on this board...but please contact your own OR office and explain the situation 

theoretica

While your situation is unusual, it is similar to a situation where partners own a home together and one goes bankrupt - citizen's advice web pages say in that situation one of the reasons to argue for the home not to be sold is if the other owner is over 70.  This should see your mother staying put.

fatbelly

SpreadableToast said:

The OR's interest in the property started when your father passed away.  

Potentially, yes.

But the op has  said in another thread that the house was in a (discretionary?) trust at  the time his father died and so the OR will have to investigate whether they have any actual interest at all.

Technical manual says

Where the official receiver encounters a protective trust, and the property is of sufficient value to justify it, he/she should seek legal advice to establish the validity of the trust and explore any means of challenging it.

dave3dtg

fatbelly said:

SpreadableToast said:

The OR's interest in the property started when your father passed away.  

Potentially, yes.

But the op has  said in another thread that the house was in a (discretionary?) trust at  the time his father died and so the OR will have to investigate whether they have any actual interest at all.

Technical manual says

Where the official receiver encounters a protective trust, and the property is of sufficient value to justify it, he/she should seek legal advice to establish the validity of the trust and explore any means of challenging it.

I phoned Age Partnership to make a speculative enquiry about equity release because my brother said that it wasn't possible because there's too many people involved and not least potentially the OR. I was put through to their expert who intern spoke to a Land Registry expert they use when releasing equity. They found that it wasn't at all possible for my Mum, even as 75% shareholder, to release any equity or to even sell the house without "specific approval of a court order".
So strictly speaking I'm not a beneficiary as under my Dad's will none of us benefit. My brothers and I will, under my Mum's part of the will, will ultimately benefit...but even then I suspect it's still in trust.

Not sure about "discretionary" trust but the guy at Age Partnership did have to Google a word he was reading out loud from Land Registry documents attached to the file.

My Dad hated the idea of equity release so I have a suspicion the will was set up for this express purpose.

There is trustees but Age Partnership and Land Registry experts couldn't find out who it was/is. They were both quite clear that even the OR couldn't get his/her hands on the property.

Looks like I'll have to inform the OR on Monday. The reason I haven't is because my brother insisted I shouldn't while he was disputing the legitimacy of the will due to it being negligently being drawn up. He was aiming to go for a deed of transferance due to my name being in it as a mistake. I suspect other motives though. Most of my family and relatives look down their noses at me because I'm not career or financially successful...I'm the black sheep. I've been excluded from relatives wills whereas my bothers have received substantial amounts. I'm an award winning inventor but no one ever said congratulations, they hate my invention.

SpreadableToast

fatbelly said:

SpreadableToast said:

The OR's interest in the property started when your father passed away.  

Potentially, yes.

But the op has  said in another thread that the house was in a (discretionary?) trust at  the time his father died and so the OR will have to investigate whether they have any actual interest at all.

Technical manual says

Where the official receiver encounters a protective trust, and the property is of sufficient value to justify it, he/she should seek legal advice to establish the validity of the trust and explore any means of challenging it.

The point I was trying to make (perhaps badly) was that if the OR has an interest in the property, they have an interest in the property and the OP committing suicide will not change that, so other than committing suicide never being the answer in general, it is definitely not the answer here.

Minkym00

Essentially without seeing the exact wording of the will and the Trust no-one here can really help. You should know though that the only way anyone could attempt to force your Mum out (if that’s what the upshot is) would be to apply for and Order Of Possession from the Court. This would not be done lightly in these circumstances, if at all, and could take years in any case. Equally a judge is not going evict an elderly, frail lady from her own home. Easily said, but try not to worry. 

phillw

I can't see how they could force a sale on a property you have such a small interest in.
Especially when your mum essentially has a 100% interest in the property during her lifetime.
Quite what happens after her death is up to you to argue out with the OR.