Two storey extension- no building regs

eidand

AdrianC said:

Mickey666 said:

I wonder what the OP would think of this old house for sale: https://www.carterjonas.co.uk/house/for-sale/lavenham/mel190146

This might be an en-suite too far for many.

god I hate this. I remember one of the properties I saw had a toilet in the main bedroom, no walls, no curtains, nothing, just the toilet on the side of a room. How can someone live like that is beyond me.
In this particular case imagine the moisture in the walls. Have a nice, long, hot bath and then go to bed .... you'll swimming in that bed ....

thearchitect

lesalanos said:

I've never seen a building inspector test anything on the works done on my properties.  They show up now and again, have a look round, check it all looks OK then come back at the next stage.  As said above builders take short cuts.  The cert says that the processes have been followed but nothing about the quality of the work in my experience 

Assuming that you are in England, given the rules differ modestly across the UK, the principal responsibility for compliance with the Building Regulations rests with the Contractor and the Employer/Client.  Building Control's role is as a verifier, rather than clerk-of-works.   This is one thing that is being tightened up in the draft Building Safety Act 2020, which makes specific provision for designer and contractor competence for high risk buildings (for example).

If someone building a substantial extension or even a house dispenses with professional advice during the works and relies entirely upon the building contractor then some - hopefully a small minority - will inevitably take short-cuts.  That's just what happens when nobody is keeping an eye on them.

snowcat75

ripley81 said:

The important part is the quality of what's been built , and time and time again buyers become fixated  with council beurocracy  over the really important issues. 

Yes I agree. The quality of what’s been built must be spot on. But paperwork is important to protect your investment, even if in reality it might not prove anything. 

Personally iv never looked as houses an investment just somware to live, and iv never bought a house only built, so my perspective is somewhat different . 

However my point still stands, your concerned about the extension but not the house which was an 80s build, if this was built by one of the large house bashers this should be your main concern, and the overall condition rather than focusing on one part.

As iv already said buy a new build off an estate and for decades they have all the relevant paperwork, yet  the build quality and the longevity of these houses and estates is renowned to be poor and campaigns are often set up by the residents to attempt to get the developers to rectify all the problems with these places.  

90% of my place is still the old original stable block and coach house that was built over 150 years ago to put animals in, which strangely has no paperwork,  yet I can 100% say that in another 150 years outside of a nuclear war it will still be here, Is it likely a new build will still stand in 300 years?

So my advice would be to look beyond the paperwork and at the entire building, to which you may find its a pile of crap anyway, or it might be good, anything outside of this is irrelevant especially 15 years on from any alterations. 

ripley81

Thank you snowcat. 

I say investment because I have 4 children and have already lost £70k on our current property. So I can’t afford for that to happen again. 

Im going to get some sort of survey. Can you recommend what type I will need? Building survey? Or do I need a structural engineer? 

snowcat75

ripley81 said:

Thank you snowcat. 

I say investment because I have 4 children and have already lost £70k on our current property. So I can’t afford for that to happen again. 

Im going to get some sort of survey. Can you recommend what type I will need? Building survey? Or do I need a structural engineer? 

It would all be standard construction, so a building survey would be fine (homebuyers i believe they call it)and should highlight any glaring issues which would most certainly be noticeable after a decade and half.  This is of course unless your friends with a builder and then take them and save the £400, for the price of a couple of beers!

Just be aware all surveys especially those that are non invasive (which is basically all for house buying purposes) are fairly limited and tend to be padded with a lot of waffle to justify there fee, but they should pick up on the important points and the rest can be filtered out. 

Just remember the dwelling is over 30 years old and the extension around 15, no matter what's surveyed there's bound to be the odd issue....... you just need to make sure that you avoid buying a money pit.

ripley81

Ah great, thank you 👏👏

Mickey666

ripley81 said:

Mickey666 said:

AskAsk said:

DoaM said:

AskAsk said:

we had the same problem on our house when we bought it.  the sellers had a single storey extension done and they didn't have the building regulations sign off certificate.  we insisted that this was done before we complete the purchase as we didn't like the idea of an indeminity.  the sellers got the certificate, as apparently it was available but the council didn't put it on the website or gave it to the owners.  or maybe the owners forgotten about it.
you can buy the property without the certificate, but you would need to get it certified once you have bought it and that may cost a lot of money.

Why?

you can apparently get an indemnity policy but that doesn't protect you if the house fall over.  the building regulations are there for a purpose, to make sure that it is built safely and so unless this is signed off, you won't be able to know if it was built safely or correctly.  also the indemnity policy would only protect you if the council goes after you, not if the building fell over and damaged other people's property or injured/killed someone, even yourself or your family.  a bit of a OTT scenario, but it is not impossible.

How many home insurance policies, which typically offer around £5m 3rd party liability cover, require a full set of building regulation certificates?

My house was built in the 16th century, way before building regulations were even thought about.  The foundations would not meet current regs, some of the stairs would not meet current regs, there are clear signs of historic movement because some of the floors are not level and nor is the ridge of the roof - in other words a perfect example of a late tudor timber framed house that has stood for almost 500 years.

Your house sounds lush and like one I would happily stay in and not need to worry about resale value because it would attract the right buyers who love Tudor properties. I’ve never heard of anyone having a love for 80s properties with wonky floors 🤣🤣 

Well, it certainly wasn't lush when I moved in, unless you like a roof through which you could see daylight, plaster falling off some walls, many rotten window frames and no heating other than open fires.  But I needed a retirement project and have very much enjoyed it.

Mickey666

snowcat75 said:

AskAsk said:

snowcat75 said:

AskAsk said:

DoaM said:

AskAsk said:

we had the same problem on our house when we bought it.  the sellers had a single storey extension done and they didn't have the building regulations sign off certificate.  we insisted that this was done before we complete the purchase as we didn't like the idea of an indeminity.  the sellers got the certificate, as apparently it was available but the council didn't put it on the website or gave it to the owners.  or maybe the owners forgotten about it.
you can buy the property without the certificate, but you would need to get it certified once you have bought it and that may cost a lot of money.

Why?

you can apparently get an indemnity policy but that doesn't protect you if the house fall over.  the building regulations are there for a purpose, to make sure that it is built safely and so unless this is signed off, you won't be able to know if it was built safely or correctly.  also the indemnity policy would only protect you if the council goes after you, not if the building fell over and damaged other people's property or injured/killed someone, even yourself or your family.  a bit of a OTT scenario, but it is not impossible.

This is somewhat of a misconception some building regs are to do with structure some are just bits of paperwork, Corners are cut with or without building regs and just how much checking do you believe goes on in the 30 minutes total time the average inspector looks an extension? , Iv know cowboy builders to chuck 400mm of dirt back into footings once inspected to save a few quid on concreate, keep the inspector busy so they only look at the one room where they've put the correct amount of knoggins in the floor, or put the correct thickness of insulation in what can be seen then then skimped on the rest. 

BUT most importantly why is the matter so important that one section meets current regs and the rest of the house doesnt or ever will? 
People live in houses (and pay a premium ) that are century's old, and were built with timber that was found on the shoreline....
The important part is the quality of what's been built , and time and time again buyers become fixated  with council beurocracy  over the really important issues. 

the building regulations that i have experienced are all to do with structure and safety, like the electrics safety certificate, the double glazed windows, the fire protection for the building, the drainage and soil.  they can't regulate old buildings but they can new building work, and as long as there is a record on file that such work had been done, there may always be come back from buying a property without the final inspection and sign off.

it depends on what work had been done, but in this case a two storey structure had been built, so a significant build had been done, the council is aware of the work, so i would be uncormfortable buying the property on indemnity alone, and i would want to get that certification or if not, get the indemnity and also get a full valuation report to make sure there is no structural issue with the extension.

EPC/SAPs ,water usage calks, disabled access (removed most of the time) have little to do with safety or structure but are often priototised by BC over inspection.

electrical compliance only came in 2005 and wasn't notifiable to BC until 2013, Fensa was 2002 and  isn't necessary when being built under BC, so in this instance most of doesnt exist.

BR are only enforceable within 12 months so the council isnt going to care, but more importantly Regs from the Mid 2000snds would not meet compliance today anyhow.

But if that's not enough perspective I converted this from 2016-18.....

BC inspected a total of 4 times, 
The drains were checked from 50' away,
The section of wall rebuilt was done so because it had no footing (BC never even knew)
The steels that were added and the new As I put in should have had a request for there EN1090 certs (my trade) BC hadnt even know what 1090 was.
The staircase I made were never checked to be within part K compliance.
The sparky despite issuing a compliance cert and testing , hadn't tightened a N tail on the main ring so I had an MCB fault.
escape windows upstairs were never measured in height, and actually I never had inspector on the scaffolding at all.....
The list is endless of things BC didn't do along with the pointless things they did,  and having something built to a bare minim standard  doesnt make a decent build, I always use new builds as an example tick all the boxes for compliance but will be the slums of the future once the warranty runs out. 
 

Nice project!

As you so rightly say: The list is endless of things BC didn't do along with the pointless things they did,  and having something built to a bare minim standard  doesnt make a decent build, I always use new builds as an example tick all the boxes for compliance but will be the slums of the future once the warranty runs out.

Sadly these days, people seem to put more store on pieces of paper than the fundamental quality of the building construction.  Sign of the times I suppose

Mickey666

eidand said:

AdrianC said:

Mickey666 said:

I wonder what the OP would think of this old house for sale: https://www.carterjonas.co.uk/house/for-sale/lavenham/mel190146

This might be an en-suite too far for many.

god I hate this. I remember one of the properties I saw had a toilet in the main bedroom, no walls, no curtains, nothing, just the toilet on the side of a room. How can someone live like that is beyond me.
In this particular case imagine the moisture in the walls. Have a nice, long, hot bath and then go to bed .... you'll swimming in that bed ....

Well each to their own, but I don't see much potential for condensation problems.  There's an adjacent window that can be opened in warm weather and a fireplace for a roaring fire in colder weather.  Either would provide for plenty of ventilation.  Far more healthy than modern sealed-up boxes.

Scotbot

AskAsk said:

ripley81 said:

lincroft1710 said:

Why hasn't the vendor applied for Building Control sign off?

They thought the builder did it. 

it is the responsibility of the builder to get the completion certificate as they are normally the ones who notify building control.  this is why so many properties don't have the completion certificate as the builders have been paid already when they finish, they don't want to hang around waiting for the inspection and approval.  most homeowners wouldn't know you need this final sign off and would have expected the builder to have sorted it all out.

No it isn't, perhaps it was  back in 2007 but today the owner has responsibility as well. A moot point though since neither bothered to follow it up.