Gold (for diversification and balance)

aekostas

Another_Saver said:

As least they are productive assets that pay me dividends to hold them rather than needing constant storage and security.

Bullion companies can take care of that and, if part of a SIPP, one buys gold with tax top-up. 

planteria

Filo25 said:

....I don't think that is a ridiculous thing to do in the current market when I view bonds as a risky investment with limited remaining upside....

nor do i. i would say physical precious metals / precious metal miners / bitcoin. i have a tiny bit, a useful slice, and a large slice in those respectively, alongside a couple of investments in pooled funds, and a couple of direct investments in big tech.

Another_Saver

aekostas said:

Another_Saver said:

As least they are productive assets that pay me dividends to hold them rather than needing constant storage and security.

Bullion companies can take care of that and, if part of a SIPP, one buys gold with tax top-up. 

... If you own gold in any manner other than literally owning physical gold in your house you have to pay security and storage, doesn't matter whether its a broker, ETC or whatever. Stocks, bonds, cash and property pay you to hold them.
The SIPP point is moot - all assets get the tax top up.

Another_Saver

planteria said:

Filo25 said:

....I don't think that is a ridiculous thing to do in the current market when I view bonds as a risky investment with limited remaining upside....

nor do i. i would say physical precious metals / precious metal miners / bitcoin. i have a tiny bit, a useful slice, and a large slice in those respectively, alongside a couple of investments in pooled funds, and a couple of direct investments in big tech.

See my previous responses in this thread...

aekostas

Another_Saver said:

aekostas said:

Another_Saver said:

As least they are productive assets that pay me dividends to hold them rather than needing constant storage and security.

Bullion companies can take care of that and, if part of a SIPP, one buys gold with tax top-up. 

... If you own gold in any manner other than literally owning physical gold in your house you have to pay security and storage, doesn't matter whether its a broker, ETC or whatever. Stocks, bonds, cash and property pay you to hold them.
The SIPP point is moot - all assets get the tax top up.

I will try to understand what you mean by "pay you": if for example cash pays me through interest rates I am not sure it's interesting just now; if property pays through increase in value it is not guaranteed and maintenance is not free. But you may mean soomething else.

My (perhaps limited) view of the pension world is funds; I pay fees. I checked online the cost to buy, store and sell in 10 years £10k of gold; it is 4.6% in total. My current, suboptimal private pension is 1% pa; VLS would be 0.42% pa which I think is 4.28% in the 10-year period, which is much of a muchness. If one (who is not me :-)) went for £100k over the same period it is 1.86% in total.

(All my figures should be taken with a sizeable pinch of salt.)

As for SIPP as a moot point, I was comparing that against just buying gold. Of course it has the drawback that it's the SIPP that owns the gold and one cannot access it (its value in this instance) unless able to draw down, while they would with coins in a safe (mad risk with insurance costs, as far as I am concerned) or in a vault as usual.

Peter.Siffredi

Does anyone have experience in buying physical gold online from the well known sellers?
Holding physical gold doesn't incur ETF fees. I am confident in storing a small amount of gold securely, but I have some reluctance in trusting an online dealer and being sure that any purchase is 100% genuine. Conversely, the ETF parent company may not necessarily hold the physical gold and may have some bankruptcy risk.

DiddyDavies

Provided that you stick to one of the main bullion dealers in the UK, you won't have any problems with the gold not being genuine.
I've purchased from ATS bullion in London (face to face purchase) and online from Elm investments for gold and from Coin Invest direct for silver and like thousands of other customers, never had a problem.

Another_Saver

aekostas said:

Another_Saver said:

aekostas said:

Another_Saver said:

As least they are productive assets that pay me dividends to hold them rather than needing constant storage and security.

Bullion companies can take care of that and, if part of a SIPP, one buys gold with tax top-up. 

... If you own gold in any manner other than literally owning physical gold in your house you have to pay security and storage, doesn't matter whether its a broker, ETC or whatever. Stocks, bonds, cash and property pay you to hold them.
The SIPP point is moot - all assets get the tax top up.

I will try to understand what you mean by "pay you": if for example cash pays me through interest rates I am not sure it's interesting just now; if property pays through increase in value it is not guaranteed and maintenance is not free. But you may mean soomething else.

My (perhaps limited) view of the pension world is funds; I pay fees. I checked online the cost to buy, store and sell in 10 years £10k of gold; it is 4.6% in total. My current, suboptimal private pension is 1% pa; VLS would be 0.42% pa which I think is 4.28% in the 10-year period, which is much of a muchness. If one (who is not me :-)) went for £100k over the same period it is 1.86% in total.

(All my figures should be taken with a sizeable pinch of salt.)

As for SIPP as a moot point, I was comparing that against just buying gold. Of course it has the drawback that it's the SIPP that owns the gold and one cannot access it (its value in this instance) unless able to draw down, while they would with coins in a safe (mad risk with insurance costs, as far as I am concerned) or in a vault as usual.

...
Gold is a non productive asset that you have to pay to own.
Cash, bonds, stocks and rental property are productive assets that pay you to own them. They pay you an income. With gold you have to always judge when to buy and sell.
How much you pay for dealing, platform, letting agent's fees etc is upto you.
I don't know how to phrase this more simply, it's one of those things so obvious people sometimes miss it.

itwasntme001

Another_Saver said:

aekostas said:

Another_Saver said:

aekostas said:

Another_Saver said:

As least they are productive assets that pay me dividends to hold them rather than needing constant storage and security.

Bullion companies can take care of that and, if part of a SIPP, one buys gold with tax top-up. 

... If you own gold in any manner other than literally owning physical gold in your house you have to pay security and storage, doesn't matter whether its a broker, ETC or whatever. Stocks, bonds, cash and property pay you to hold them.
The SIPP point is moot - all assets get the tax top up.

I will try to understand what you mean by "pay you": if for example cash pays me through interest rates I am not sure it's interesting just now; if property pays through increase in value it is not guaranteed and maintenance is not free. But you may mean soomething else.

My (perhaps limited) view of the pension world is funds; I pay fees. I checked online the cost to buy, store and sell in 10 years £10k of gold; it is 4.6% in total. My current, suboptimal private pension is 1% pa; VLS would be 0.42% pa which I think is 4.28% in the 10-year period, which is much of a muchness. If one (who is not me :-)) went for £100k over the same period it is 1.86% in total.

(All my figures should be taken with a sizeable pinch of salt.)

As for SIPP as a moot point, I was comparing that against just buying gold. Of course it has the drawback that it's the SIPP that owns the gold and one cannot access it (its value in this instance) unless able to draw down, while they would with coins in a safe (mad risk with insurance costs, as far as I am concerned) or in a vault as usual.

...
Gold is a non productive asset that you have to pay to own.
Cash, bonds, stocks and rental property are productive assets that pay you to own them. They pay you an income. With gold you have to always judge when to buy and sell.
How much you pay for dealing, platform, letting agent's fees etc is upto you.
I don't know how to phrase this more simply, it's one of those things so obvious people sometimes miss it.

Technically, given real yields/savings rates are negative, holders of bonds and cash savings are paying this fee (in terms of real rates) to hold these "assets".  Rental property and stocks generally have a positive real yield (although certainly some stocks/properties won't).

In a world where real rates are negative and thus there is no opportunity cost of holding, gold does seem attractive (in fact it is strongly correlated with real interest rates).  Although, since it does not produce any cash flows, it is impossible to place a meaningful value on it and thus it can be thought of as pure speculation, something that needs to be carefully traded in and out of rather than a pure buy and hold approach (except for insurance purposes).

aekostas

Insurance is how I think of it. Something to fall back on.