Bank fraud - can anyone help me make sense of this....?

JohnRinson

colsten said:

JohnRinson said:
 Either way, we’ve told the bank to freeze her card / account and are going to close it now. 

Didn't you say she's 19, i.e. an adult? In which case, you can't tell a bank what you'd like to see happen with her accounts, however right your actions are. Unless you have a POA for her, and she is unable to make her own decisions.

Yes you're right - I just mean that we told her she should phone the bank and tell them someone else has access to her card / online banking, which she's now done, and they've put a block on the account. I'm sure they will now investigate transactions on the account and detect what's happened and no doubt blacklist her, whether she closes the account down voluntarily or not. 

Roger.Wilco

colsten said:

I am inclined to think she should get her card
cancelled and her account closed without delay and open another one elsewhere. She should also consider getting a protective CIFAS registration, to prevent the fraudster from setting up new accounts in her name (if he hasn’t done so already).

DO NOT get CIFAS registration until AFTER your daughter has setup her new account somewhere else.

My accountant's computer systems were compromised sometime during last Christmas - with unknown amounts of my ID data sent to random email addresses...

I followed the advice I received at the time from HMRC and Action Fraud etc.. and paid for a CIFAS Protective Registration marker - I even spoke to CIFAS and discussed at length regarding the Pros & Cons...   it won't affect you they said - it is a "proactive measure".

Hasn't worked out that way - to clean up the mess caused by the computer compromise - I've had to change all my accounts.  Because of the CIFAS marker it has taken 7 months! to finally get things back on-track.  But having any form of CIFAS marker makes it much harder and a more complex and frustrating process.  I've had existing accounts frozen; I've had new accounts after being open for a week or so frozen; I've had to explain myself to the various banks fraud/security teams on a regular basis; I've had to take ID into branch multiple times... 

I would SERIOUSLY consider CAREFULLY if this is the best course of action - and would only advise to do so - IF and ONLY IF - alternative accounts have ALREADY setup and active.

I am wanting to write-up my experience and lessons learnt here on MSE - but I have not found the best sub-forum to do so yet - as it goes across personal ID, bank accounts, credit, tax, etc...  if anyone has any suggestions - let me know and I will post.  Maybe MSE needs a "fraud" sub-forum.

JohnRinson

Thanks for all this advice so far. Unfortunately the story gets worse. Having been to the branch we've successfully managed to close all her accounts. However in doing so they pointed out mobile phone direct debits to O2. She's not on O2, so when asked about this, it's transpired the same individual convinced her to take out TWO mobile phone contracts in her name, with the numbers registered to her (36-month contracts) but to drive to London to give the phones to him. So now she's saddled with £2,500 of mobile phone bills to pay. As with the original post, I can't understand what this individual has to gain from this? Is it as simple as he's taken advantage of a gullible teenager who'll apparently do anything she's asked in order to get two new phones for himself? Or is there something more sinister / fraudulent behind him getting her to do this? 

MalMonroe

mab3000 said:

She gave this person access to her account 2 weeks ago after meeting someone in a nightclub which must have been at least 5 months ago considering nightclubs have not been able to open since March when the lock down began?

Her actions have made her become a money mule to launder illegal money, and has committed a crime herself. She will most likely have her bank account closed, and will have a fraud marker against her name preventing her from opening a new bank account elsewhere. She could also face prosecution as well. 

(This is assuming that other activity has gone on with the account as well which I am assuming has happened, such as money moving in and out of the account. If it’s just money that has been taken from her account at this point this could be a different matter with a different outcome).

How on earth is that helpful? You'll just lead the OP to having a heart attack. His daughter was an innocent vulnerable victim, stop all the nonsense about her being prosecuted and having a fraud marker on her bank account. OP asked for help, not condemnation! 

colsten

I can only repeat: get her to get that protective CIFAS registration done now.

And perhaps send her to the Police.

MalMonroe

Yes, thank you colsten!

Nobody has mentioned going to the police, have they?

Your daughter's not the only one who's been hoodwinked and robbed. The police need all the details. ASAP.

mr_stripey

JohnRinson said:

Thanks for all this advice so far. Unfortunately the story gets worse. Having been to the branch we've successfully managed to close all her accounts. However in doing so they pointed out mobile phone direct debits to O2. She's not on O2, so when asked about this, it's transpired the same individual convinced her to take out TWO mobile phone contracts in her name, with the numbers registered to her (36-month contracts) but to drive to London to give the phones to him. So now she's saddled with £2,500 of mobile phone bills to pay. As with the original post, I can't understand what this individual has to gain from this? Is it as simple as he's taken advantage of a gullible teenager who'll apparently do anything she's asked in order to get two new phones for himself? Or is there something more sinister / fraudulent behind him getting her to do this? 

what a nightmare! Kids eh? 
Just wanted to say fair play to you for coming on here. I really hope you can get some good help. Like you I'm a bit confused as to the type of crime here. I mean, if I asked you to give me £1000 and you send it to me then presumably that isn't a crime as such? But surely there is a crime here somewhere. What does your daughter think about involving the police? 

k12479

JohnRinson said:

...convinced her to take out TWO mobile phone contracts in her name, with the numbers registered to her (36-month contracts) but to drive to London to give the phones to him...I can't understand what this individual has to gain from this? ...get two new phones for himself? Or is there something more sinister / fraudulent behind him getting her to do this? 

Aside from the free phones and calls, potentially used for illegal activity where the number has no (direct or easily provable) link to the criminal, only to your daughter.

Roger.Wilco

JohnRinson said:

... Unfortunately the story gets worse. ... it's transpired the same individual convinced her to take out TWO mobile phone contracts in her name, with the numbers registered to her (36-month contracts) but to drive to London to give the phones to him. So now she's saddled with £2,500 of mobile phone bills to pay. ...

It probably goes without saying - talk to O2 and get out of the contacts no matter what contract penalty might need to be paid.  These are "burner phones" used by criminal gangs to avoid/delay detection by authorities.  As mobile phones can be tracked by the police - having your name on the mobile phone account - can be used by the police as part of the proof to put an individual at a scene of a crime! It would then need to be argued in a court of law. Therefore, distance yourself as far away from those phones as possible!

JohnRinson said:

...  As with the original post, I can't understand what this individual has to gain from this? Is it as simple as he's taken advantage of a gullible teenager who'll apparently do anything she's asked in order to get two new phones for himself? Or is there something more sinister / fraudulent behind him getting her to do this? 

Problem is that most law-abiding people don't think like a criminal...

What someone can get out of asking someone else to purchase two mobile phone plans:

• To get a mobile phone contract - you need a credit check - and provide ID.   If your a criminal - you definitely do not want to use your real ID.  If you can use someone else's ID then that deflects the responsibility.  (see above).
• You get two good phones you can on-sell - and the other individual doesn't even need to pay for them!

I don't know if your daughter lives with you?  What address was used for the Mobile Phone contracts?  What was handed to this other individual - only the phones or all the paperwork + phones?

I strongly suggest that you and your daughter distance yourself as far away from those Mobile Phone contacts as soon as possible.

Unfortunately,  @mab3000 is correct - the other individual - is a criminal or part of a criminal gang - and by willing association (handing over bank details and phones) - your daughter is an accomplice to whatever criminal activities the other individual/group has or is undertaking.

Rise in teenage money mules prompts warnings

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49717288

Money muling

https://www.actionfraud.police.uk/a-z-of-fraud/money-muling

Even if you’re unaware that the money you’re transferring was illegally obtained, you have played an important role in fraud and money laundering, and can still be prosecuted. Criminals will often use fake job adverts, or create social media posts about opportunities to make money quickly, in order to lure potential money mule recruits. 

JohnRinson

Thanks all - this has been very helpful. My first reaction was to go to the police but having thought more about it and researched further, including all these contributions, I think that won't help. It's clear that, whether she fully understood what was going on or not, she is basically one of the criminals here in the eyes of the law. And, although I may have the biased view of a parent, I feel this is more about stupidity and naivety by her than full criminal intent. I'm not blinkered enough to think she was totally unknowing - I'm sure she knew this was something "dodgy" but wouldn't have known the full extent of it. I feel that the loss of her life savings, which she's worked hard for  for years (legitimately) is punishment enough and to involve the police could escalate things further with no real further benefit. Unfortunately as parents of teenagers we're learning the older and more independent they get, the less easy it is to really know what's going on in their lives. I'm sure there's much more to the story we don't know, but at least we have an idea of what's happened and why now, thanks to these contributions. Ultimately I think she's basically been "groomed" by a criminal gang (or representatives of one). If we can draw a line under it by having all these accounts / phones etc cancelled then I think that's the best we can hope for. The lost money - and lasting threat of the banks tracking this down and black-marking her / criminal investigation etc at a later date - hopefully being enough of a lesson for this never to happen again.