Bank fraud - can anyone help me make sense of this....?

JohnRinson

Hi
This is a really strange situation I'm unable to get my head around - and wondered if anyone here can help me make any sense of it....
After asking our 19-year old daughter to make a bank transfer to me to pay me for something, she's revealed she's unable to because all of her money (about £6,500) has been taken from her account. Her story, which we've really struggled to get the detail of and which I'm sure there's much more that we don't know, is this...
She met someone in a nightclub when out with some friends...
He has approached her some time later offering her a chance to "make some money" by giving him access to her bank account. She says several of her other friends have done this and paid money to this guy, who has then paid the money back a few days later, plus extra. She says she knows no detail of how or why it works, just that she "knows others" that have done it and who have earned money this way. 
The person has asked her for her bank card, PIN number, her online banking login details and then told her to delete her online banking app from her phone and not log in to online banking again until he contacts her again to tell her it's safe to do so, by which time he'll have extracted money from her account, "done something with it" and then paid it back plus extra. 
I can hardly believe I'm typing these words, but she has agreed to this and done everything he asked. She did this two weeks ago and, over this time, this person has emptied her savings and current accounts completely, withdrawing £6,500. 
She says she is still in contact with him via Snapchat and he's reassuring her he'll pay the money back "in a few days" - but this has gone on, unknown to us, for two weeks. Obviously he's not paying the money back. 
I titled this post 'fraud' but I can't even actually see that it's a fraud - she has voluntarily given him all this information and even, when he's made withdrawals, sent him the one-time passcode from her phone. I don't even know he's even committed a crime here - she's literally allowed him to do all this and given him everything he needs to do so. 
Despite her saying it's "someone she knows" she says she doesn't know where he lives and doesn't even know his second name. 
The details we've managed to get out of her about what's happened are vague and unclear. 
I guess my question is not how this has happened, as it's pretty obvious how he's physically taken all her money. It's what might be the true circumstances behind how he's persuaded her to hand over all this information. What would've been his tactic, or his story to be convincing enough to get someone to do something so completely, unthinkably idiotic. 
I can't imagine anyone else has experienced this. And I know she completely deserves what's happened and has only herself to blame. But the thing I can't undertstand about it is how on earth anyone could've had a convincing enough reason to get her to give these details to him. 
We're unable to get any further information out of her about the background to it other than that "he told me it's a way to make money". Has anyone else ever heard of or experienced such a "scam"? 
Thanks. 

k12479

Seems to just be a slight variation of this, except giving the fraudster/criminal all your bank details to let them do the transferring themselves and er...your money as well:
https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/blog/money-mules-what-are-they-and-could-you-fall-victim

Go to craigslist and type in 'transfers' and you'll see plenty of offers enticing fools, e.g. this, if the link shows up. Snapchat, etc. are no doubt similar:
https://london.craigslist.org/fns/d/london-specific-high-streets-needed-for/7160807346.html

As for a convincing enough reason, well, there isn't one, the 'victims' are just reckless, naive, stupid or some combination thereof.

mab3000

She gave this person access to her account 2 weeks ago after meeting someone in a nightclub which must have been at least 5 months ago considering nightclubs have not been able to open since March when the lock down began?

Her actions have made her become a money mule to launder illegal money, and has committed a crime herself. She will most likely have her bank account closed, and will have a fraud marker against her name preventing her from opening a new bank account elsewhere. She could also face prosecution as well. 

(This is assuming that other activity has gone on with the account as well which I am assuming has happened, such as money moving in and out of the account. If it’s just money that has been taken from her account at this point this could be a different matter with a different outcome). 

jonesMUFCforever

Basically her ''clean'' money has gone - if he does pay anything back guaranteed it will be ''dirty'' money from some other mug.
I really don't know what to advise here - whether she comes clean to the bank now to at least stop him in his tracks with her account or open a new account with another bank before hers is closed down.
Her money is gone with little hope of getting it back - if he has not paid anything back in - at least she cannot be accused of being an accessory?
Please tell her to check all the CRA's to ensure he has not opened any loans or credit cards etc in her name - if there is anything untoward she has to go to the police.

JohnRinson

Thanks all, that is really helpful. I couldn't understand what could possibly have been behind this ludicrous situation but this has made it clear and given it a name "money mule". Researching that more has helped clarify a lot of what's gone on here. The money is clearly gone for good but at the very least I have some understanding now of why. 

lr1277

It looks like your daughter is a victim as well. Until this is sorted, it is possible anybody who transfers money to her may also be labelled a fraudster, in which case their accounts will be suspended due to investigation. Read some of the other threads on here about suspended accounts and whether the account is then closed.
There may be a way for your daughter to get out from under this, but I can’t remember the details.
I think about 6 months to a year ago, there was a post about contacting a particular department of the police. I think if you get a crime number you may be able to contact the bank to reactivate the account. Not sure at all but that is what I remember. 

I think BBC’s Watchdog may have also covered this in the last 18 months.
HTH

colsten

lr1277 said:

It looks like your daughter is a victim as well. Until this is sorted, it is possible anybody who transfers money to her may also be labelled a fraudster, in which case their accounts will be suspended due to investigation. Read some of the other threads on here about suspended accounts and whether the account is then closed.
There may be a way for your daughter to get out from under this, but I can’t remember the details.
I think about 6 months to a year ago, there was a post about contacting a particular department of the police. I think if you get a crime number you may be able to contact the bank to reactivate the account. Not sure at all but that is what I remember. 

I think BBC’s Watchdog may have also covered this in the last 18 months.
HTH

I don’t think the bank has locked the account to date. Difficult to say whether she would make matters even worse for herself by telling the bank and going to the Police. A third party fraud CIFAS marker would mean havoc for her for years to come. Mind you, she might get one anyway. 

I am inclined to think she should get her card
cancelled and her account closed without delay and open another one elsewhere. She should also consider getting a protective CIFAS registration, to prevent the fraudster from setting up new accounts in her name (if he hasn’t done so already).

Rhubarb_Shed

OP - If the name you are using is your own, I'd consider changing it, as anyone who knows you/your daughter is likely to be able to identify her from it.

Your daughter is clearly a victim in this, but as to whether she has committed an offence herself would IMO depend on if she knew, or could have been reasonably expected to know, that her account would be used for illegal activity.  We may all do naive/stupid things occasionally, which with common sense we shouldn't have, but it doesn't necessarily make us criminals.

JohnRinson

Thanks - I am using a false name. Unfortunately although she’s a victim in one way, she also has only herself to blame, for two reasons. One is that I’m sure that, even though she wouldn’t have understood exactly what was going on, she must’ve been aware this was something illegitimate. Secondly, and this part is harder for me to get my head around than even the fact she agreed to this, is that it’s the 2nd time it’s happened to her - I just didn’t realise what had happened before. About 2-years ago she said she’d had her “debit card stolen”. When we contacted the bank it transpired they had cancelled her account, shutting it down and banning her from opening another one for at least 6-years. At the time I thought the bank was being outrageous - penalising her for being a victim of a stolen card that was then used for fraud. We managed to open a new account with another bank (which I’m amazed about, as thought the ban would apply across all banks). Now, after this 2nd incident, it’s become clear the “stolen card” from a few years ago was exactly the same situation - she gave the card and PIN no to some random bloke who drove hundreds of miles from London to pick it up from her, with the promise of paying her back more money. She is clearly unbelievably gullible and naive and is easy prey for these people it seems. Either that or she’s a willing accomplice in fraud. Probably a bit of both. Either way, we’ve told the bank to freeze her card / account and are going to close it now. Hopefully the loss of her years of savings towards a mortgage deposit is punishment enough for her. Though I strongly suspect this won’t be the end of the matter, the bank will still pick up on what’s happened - and she’ll get black-marked for fraud as well. 

Hasbeen

JohnRinson said:

Thanks - I am using a false name. Unfortunately although she’s a victim in one way, she also has only herself to blame, for two reasons. One is that I’m sure that, even though she wouldn’t have understood exactly what was going on, she must’ve been aware this was something illegitimate. Secondly, and this part is harder for me to get my head around than even the fact she agreed to this, is that it’s the 2nd time it’s happened to her - I just didn’t realise what had happened before. About 2-years ago she said she’d had her “debit card stolen”. When we contacted the bank it transpired they had cancelled her account, shutting it down and banning her from opening another one for at least 6-years. At the time I thought the bank was being outrageous - penalising her for being a victim of a stolen card that was then used for fraud. We managed to open a new account with another bank (which I’m amazed about, as thought the ban would apply across all banks). Now, after this 2nd incident, it’s become clear the “stolen card” from a few years ago was exactly the same situation - she gave the card and PIN no to some random bloke who drove hundreds of miles from London to pick it up from her, with the promise of paying her back more money. She is clearly unbelievably gullible and naive and is easy prey for these people it seems. Either that or she’s a willing accomplice in fraud. Probably a bit of both. Either way, we’ve told the bank to freeze her card / account and are going to close it now. Hopefully the loss of her years of savings towards a mortgage deposit is punishment enough for her. Though I strongly suspect this won’t be the end of the matter, the bank will still pick up on what’s happened - and she’ll get black-marked for fraud as well. 

If this has happened before then she is extremely lucky to have opened the new account so soon after?

She should if still possible now, cancel her card and bank account asap.  And move to an other bank and also get a protective CFIS registration  to protect her in future.

At the moment if it goes the usual banks way she will probably end up with a CIFAS marker against her. So goodbye any hopes of  new accounts, credit, mortgage etc for quite a time?

Has she checked her credit reports with the 3 main credit reference agencies, for anything reported, and for the last time she was a money mule?

colsten

JohnRinson said:
 Either way, we’ve told the bank to freeze her card / account and are going to close it now. 

Didn't you say she's 19, i.e. an adult? In which case, you can't tell a bank what you'd like to see happen with her accounts, however right your actions are. Unless you have a POA for her, and she is unable to make her own decisions.