Probate-free estates?

YoungBlueEyes

Going through probate puts a 6 month time limit on anyone who wishes to contest a will. 

Something I’m very glad our solicitor pulled me aside and told me. 

ETA - Father’s estate was simple as can be, we went through probate purely for the 6 month thing. 

Keep_pedalling

YoungBlueEyes said:

Going through probate puts a 6 month time limit on anyone who wishes to contest a will. 

Something I’m very glad our solicitor pulled me aside and told me. 

The 6 months only applies for claims regarding clerical errors or claimed made under the Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependants) Act 1975. There is no specified time limit for other reasons such as claiming if you suspect fraud or if you believe the testator did not have the mental capacity to make a will. https://www.simpsonmillar.co.uk/media/is-there-a-time-limit-to-contest-a-will-in-uk/

YoungBlueEyes

It was claims under the Inheritance Act our solicitor was thinking of then. 

Every day’s a school day! 

xylophone

We have both built up significant S&S ISAs over the years which means probate can’t be avoided when the first of us kicks the bucket, but I would not dream of cashing those in and expose then to both dividend and capital gains tax just to avoid probate.

Apart from anything else, you would wish your spouse to be able to benefit from  the APS (value at death or subsequent closure)?

https://moneytothemasses.com/tax/inheritance-tax/what-happens-to-my-isa-when-i-die

Mickey666

Keep_pedalling said:

Mickey666 said:

I imagine that the second death almost always requires probate because there is likely to be a house involved plus there is IHT to consider, which is not a factor for spousal transfers.

But I don't really get the point about having to deal with the first estate, because if everything is joint-owned as discussed then everything goes into the second death's estate and there is effectively no value from the first estate.

Unless I'm misunderstanding.

But there are some bid downsides to holding everything jointly, so why would you want to do that?

Yes, there might be in certain circumstances, but that’s sort of derailing the original premise of the thread where a married couple have already jointly owned pretty much everything their whole lives and are now planning their affairs for a the first death, probably within a year.  That surely cuts down the number of speculative reasons against joint ownerships?

Mickey666

Savvy_Sue said:

Well, it could just be me ... 

We did obtain probate on the first death (there were bequests other than to spouse), but did not do anything about ownership of the house, which we thought would be as easily dealt with on the second death. Unfortunately, for some reason I couldn't fathom, the buyer's solicitors insisted at the last minute on having a document signed by all the beneficiaries, because the house was still in joint names. That made me wish we'd dealt with that on the first death. 

 Isn’t that a different issue though and nothing to do with formal probate?
After the first death where a house is owned by a couple as joint tenants, surely there is nothing stopping the surviving spouse informing LR and having the ownership changed to their sole ownership.  Presumably that would only require the death certificate and would be nothing really to do with probate.
Similarly with a joint bank account.  The bank could easily be informed of the first death so it could be updated - again, nothing to do with probate.
I don’t think there was any suggestion that there wouldn’t be a need to ‘tidy the affairs’ after the first death, only that the formal probate process might not be necessary.

xylophone

If the house is owned as joint tenants, then the widower becomes sole proprietor by survivorship.

If all accounts are joint, the widower becomes sole account holder by survivorship.

If there are sole accounts left to the widower in the will of the deceased, probate may or may not be needed, depending on the requirements of the institution holding the accounts.
https://www.gov.uk/applying-for-probate

Mickey666

xylophone said:

If the house is owned as joint tenants, then the widower becomes sole proprietor by survivorship.

If all accounts are joint, the widower becomes sole account holder by survivorship.

I understand all that, but there is still a bit of paperwork to do to actually inform the institutions concerned.

The thread wasn't about simply doing nothing after a first death, only whether the formal probate process is always necessary or could be avoided by appropriate planning, especially when the first death within a couple can be expected fairly soon.

Under such circumstances, advice about possible pitfalls with joint ownership that might be relevant to a couple in their 20s is hardly relevant to a couple in their twilight years who have jointly shared everything all their married lives.

xylophone

or could be avoided by appropriate planning, especially when the first death within a couple can be expected fairly soon.

All sole accounts could be closed  before death and the proceeds given to the soon to be widower.

Shares could be transferred to the  soon to be widower before death.

It would be counter productive to dispose of ISAs before death - see my earlier post.

Mickey666

Yes, that's the sort of thing I was thinking about, thanks.

So in the circumstances in question, it seems that many things could be done to legitimately avoid probate when tidying up the deceased's affairs.

Apart from the ISA reasons already mentioned, are there any other reasons AGAINST trying to avoid probate?