Forklift caused damage to a van - no CCTV

Cobra80

Dear Forum Readers,
I'm yet again in a position where I need to seek your advice.
We (hubby and I)are renting a storage unit at a local business park. We sometimes also leave a van there overnight. Thursday night last week my husband left the van in a parking space just outside the estate office, he did it unintentionally (forgot to repark it before leaving the place). Friday morning I received a phone call from a lady in the office saying the van is parked in the directors parking bay and because he is very angry the van is in his parking slot, they are going to move it with a forklift they have available on site. The site does have a large yard so even with our van parked there there is enough space around to park several vehicles. I responded to the lady that I will be able to move the van but later in the afternoon after work. She said the director is very angry and an afternoon is too late hence they are going to move the van. I responded that if they do have a forklift suitable to move safely such a big vehicle, then I guess it should be fine. 
My husband returned home late Fri night and did not go to the storage place, he decided to go the following day (Sat). When he got there, he rang me to say he is unable to move the van as it is visibly damaged. He said it's got dents to the body on both sides, fresh scratches, the radiator is visibly pushed out and broken (visible through the front grill) with cooling fluid on the floor, exhaust pipe squashed. As it was getting dark, he was unable to take pictures so we decided to go back to the place the next day during daytime and take some pictures. The visual assessment the following day confirmed all that my husband said the day before. The van was left parked across the yard in an awkward position and badly damaged.
Monday morning my husband went to the estate office to ask about the damage, he was informed by the lady who rang me on Friday, that she informed me the van can get damaged and that I agreed for it to be moved and take the risk, that by agreeing for the van to be moved I took responsibility for what happened with the van (!). To say I was shocked to hear it, is understatement. 
The insurance said they can only process the claim from our own insurance (£700 excess, the van worth probably £1500). We informed the police, who contacted the estate office asking for a CCTV and are waiting to hear back. They informed me that without CCTV the case will be closed, without even anyone attending to the place asking questions etc. In the meantime we did email the estate office asking for access to CCTV, however - as suspected - they replied it is not available due to a cabling issue. 

What options do we still have that are worth pursuing, please? I cannot believe that someone can just damage my property, admit it to our faces and still get away with it. 

Sandtree

Ultimately it comes down to one person's word against another with little/no evidence to support either version of events.  If it were to go to court then it would come down to who the judge believed on the day (assuming all attend etc).

On the plus side at the moment they are admitting that their actions caused the damage but without anything in writing and no CCTV this could quickly change to a "no idea what happened". If its worth trying to email/write to them to elicit a written response back confirming that they did indeed move and damage it would be something I'd be considering.

From what you say your insurers are in for £800 less the salvage of the vehicle, conflicting versions of events, no CCTV etc... it just doesn't look like a case that would be economical to fight when you add the probability of success. If you load the scales with evidence then they may decide its worth fighting for a recovery.

Is this the company that owns/runs the estate? How painful would it be if they used any breakclause or similar in your rental agreement for the unit if you fight?

Mickey666

Oh dear.  No witnesses, their word against yours, although you have admitted "I responded that if they do have a forklift suitable to move safely such a big vehicle, then I guess it should be fine."    Unfortunately, it's not easy to lift a vehicle with a forklift without causing damage.

Their defence will likely be that they were able to move it safely in the sense that no one was injured during the process and that you had agreed to take the risk of any damage.  But whatever was said or intended is probably irrelevant because there is no record of the conversation.

The damage sustained by the van sounds a bit extreme.  Lifting with a forklift, I'd expect some damage to the sills and perhaps the exhaust system, maybe some buckling to the side panels.  I don't understand why the radiator should have been damaged to the extent of being pushed through the front grill.  From the description of the damage I suspect the van will be written off by the insurance company if it is (was) only worth £1500. 

You could try to claim against their insurance, via your insurance company I guess, I'm sure they will simpy tell their insurer that you gave them permission to move the vehicle with a forklift, which they did, and you'll be up against the insurance company's legal people to prove otherwise.  I can't see a happy outcome on the horizon with this incident.  

Aretnap

It's not a police matter unless the damage was caused deliberately (as opposed to carelessly), which seems unlikely. 
I would suggest that even though you agreed to let them move the van with a fork lift truck (why?) they still have a duty of care to take reasonable care to avoid damaging your van in the process, and on the face of it the y failed in that duty of care. So you can try to reclaim the cost of repair (or the value of the van, if lower) through the civil courts if you want. If your van insurance comes with motor legal protection you can see if you can use it to get legal help; if not you will need to do it yourself. 
This need not be as daunting as it sounds; basically you would have to send the company a letter saying what you want from them (eg for them to cover the cost of repairs) and that if they don't agree to this within a reasonable timescale (eg 7 days) you will issue court proceedings against them. Then if necessary you make a claim via money claim online, pay a small fee and wait for a court date. Any claim for less than £10K would be heard in the small claims court which is fairly informal and where the legal costs that can be claimed are very limited - so even if you lost you would be looking at a total bill measured in tens if pounds rather than hundreds, plus your time of course.
The lack of CCTV is probably largely irrelevant given there doesn't seem to be much dispute about what actually happened. 

Cobra80

Mickey666 said:

Oh dear.  No witnesses, their word against yours, although you have admitted "I responded that if they do have a forklift suitable to move safely such a big vehicle, then I guess it should be fine."    Unfortunately, it's not easy to lift a vehicle with a forklift without causing damage.

Their defence will likely be that they were able to move it safely in the sense that no one was injured during the process and that you had agreed to take the risk of any damage.  But whatever was said or intended is probably irrelevant because there is no record of the conversation.

The damage sustained by the van sounds a bit extreme.  Lifting with a forklift, I'd expect some damage to the sills and perhaps the exhaust system, maybe some buckling to the side panels.  I don't understand why the radiator should have been damaged to the extent of being pushed through the front grill.  From the description of the damage I suspect the van will be written off by the insurance company if it is (was) only worth £1500. 

You could try to claim against their insurance, via your insurance company I guess, I'm sure they will simpy tell their insurer that you gave them permission to move the vehicle with a forklift, which they did, and you'll be up against the insurance company's legal people to prove otherwise.  I can't see a happy outcome on the horizon with this incident.  

Thanks for your reply. When you say to try to claim against their insurance, do you mean the indemnity insurance? 

Cobra80

Aretnap said:

It's not a police matter unless the damage was caused deliberately (as opposed to carelessly), which seems unlikely. 
I would suggest that even though you agreed to let them move the van with a fork lift truck (why?) they still have a duty of care to take reasonable care to avoid damaging your van in the process, and on the face of it the y failed in that duty of care. So you can try to reclaim the cost of repair (or the value of the van, if lower) through the civil courts if you want. If your van insurance comes with motor legal protection you can see if you can use it to get legal help; if not you will need to do it yourself. 
This need not be as daunting as it sounds; basically you would have to send the company a letter saying what you want from them (eg for them to cover the cost of repairs) and that if they don't agree to this within a reasonable timescale (eg 7 days) you will issue court proceedings against them. Then if necessary you make a claim via money claim online, pay a small fee and wait for a court date. Any claim for less than £10K would be heard in the small claims court which is fairly informal and where the legal costs that can be claimed are very limited - so even if you lost you would be looking at a total bill measured in tens if pounds rather than hundreds, plus your time of course.
The lack of CCTV is probably largely irrelevant given there doesn't seem to be much dispute about what actually happened. 

Thank you for your reply. Is this the website? https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim ?

Ditzy_Mitzy

Aretnap said:

It's not a police matter unless the damage was caused deliberately (as opposed to carelessly), which seems unlikely. 
I would suggest that even though you agreed to let them move the van with a fork lift truck (why?) they still have a duty of care to take reasonable care to avoid damaging your van in the process, and on the face of it the y failed in that duty of care. So you can try to reclaim the cost of repair (or the value of the van, if lower) through the civil courts if you want. If your van insurance comes with motor legal protection you can see if you can use it to get legal help; if not you will need to do it yourself. 
This need not be as daunting as it sounds; basically you would have to send the company a letter saying what you want from them (eg for them to cover the cost of repairs) and that if they don't agree to this within a reasonable timescale (eg 7 days) you will issue court proceedings against them. Then if necessary you make a claim via money claim online, pay a small fee and wait for a court date. Any claim for less than £10K would be heard in the small claims court which is fairly informal and where the legal costs that can be claimed are very limited - so even if you lost you would be looking at a total bill measured in tens if pounds rather than hundreds, plus your time of course.
The lack of CCTV is probably largely irrelevant given there doesn't seem to be much dispute about what actually happened. 

Sorry to disagree but that's not quite true.  Criminal damage is an offence that can be committed either intentionally or recklessly and, in my opinion, the act of moving the van using the forklift truck fulfils the criteria of being reckless under the Criminal Damage Act.  All that has to be proved is that the accused party was aware that a risk of causing damage would exist, which is fairly clear here, and that it was not reasonable to take such a risk.  Being annoyed about someone parking in your space doesn't count as reasonable, that caveat exists to cover things like breaking down the door of a burning building. 
Whether the police are interested is an entirely different matter, however. 

Aretnap

Ditzy_Mitzy said:
Sorry to disagree but that's not quite true.  Criminal damage is an offence that can be committed either intentionally or recklessly and, in my opinion, the act of moving the van using the forklift truck fulfils the criteria of being reckless under the Criminal Damage Act.  All that has to be proved is that the accused party was aware that a risk of causing damage would exist, which is fairly clear here, and that it was not reasonable to take such a risk.  Being annoyed about someone parking in your space doesn't count as reasonable, that caveat exists to cover things like breaking down the door of a burning building. 

Whether the police are interested is an entirely different matter, however. 

While that's technically true, the recklessness/no reasonable excuse angle is very much muddied by the fact that the OP apparently agreed to having the van moved by fork lift truck, for some reason. So unless the hypothetical CCTV footage showed the angry director reversing the fork lift into the van a couple of times to teach the owner a lesson, I'd say that the chances of the police pursuing this are close to zero. 

Aretnap

Cobra80 said:
Thank you for your reply. Is this the website? https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim ?

That's the one, yes. 

Jumblebumble

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

Aretnap said:

It's not a police matter unless the damage was caused deliberately (as opposed to carelessly), which seems unlikely. 
I would suggest that even though you agreed to let them move the van with a fork lift truck (why?) they still have a duty of care to take reasonable care to avoid damaging your van in the process, and on the face of it the y failed in that duty of care. So you can try to reclaim the cost of repair (or the value of the van, if lower) through the civil courts if you want. If your van insurance comes with motor legal protection you can see if you can use it to get legal help; if not you will need to do it yourself. 
This need not be as daunting as it sounds; basically you would have to send the company a letter saying what you want from them (eg for them to cover the cost of repairs) and that if they don't agree to this within a reasonable timescale (eg 7 days) you will issue court proceedings against them. Then if necessary you make a claim via money claim online, pay a small fee and wait for a court date. Any claim for less than £10K would be heard in the small claims court which is fairly informal and where the legal costs that can be claimed are very limited - so even if you lost you would be looking at a total bill measured in tens if pounds rather than hundreds, plus your time of course.
The lack of CCTV is probably largely irrelevant given there doesn't seem to be much dispute about what actually happened. 

Sorry to disagree but that's not quite true.  Criminal damage is an offence that can be committed either intentionally or recklessly and, in my opinion, the act of moving the van using the forklift truck fulfils the criteria of being reckless under the Criminal Damage Act.  All that has to be proved is that the accused party was aware that a risk of causing damage would exist, which is fairly clear here, and that it was not reasonable to take such a risk.  Being annoyed about someone parking in your space doesn't count as reasonable, that caveat exists to cover things like breaking down the door of a burning building. 
Whether the police are interested is an entirely different matter, however. 

I totally agree having been in a similar situation
I parked my Zafira which was a week old in someones parking place by accident
The occupant kicked the tailgate and covered the car in Parcel tape
The Police were called and the wise copper told the occupant that he had two choices.
Pony up for the damage or be arrested for criminal damage
He wanted to get his garage to fix but I insisted on getting Vauxhall to replace which cost twice as much as they replaced the badges rather than masking.
My recommendation would be to report to the police for Criminal Damage and then MCOL

dunstonh

Care:  2020 thread revivial