Estate Agents vs Landlord

Debbie1988

greatcrested said:

Debbie1988 said:

We have it in writing and everything was in place....

You have what in writing? This is the crux of the matter.

You have no signed tenancy agreemement, so what exactly do you have in writing? Please quote.

And as others have said, your issue is with the landlord. The agent is merely acting as the landlord's.... errr.... 'agent'!

Hi, 
It was confirmed via email with the estate agents on the 9th June stating "I have just got the go ahead with the Landlord, when would you like to move in'. We then had discussions about the move in date, handing the keys over and if we were able to decorate. Nothing was mentioned about signing a contract. 
We paid the bond, and pro rata'd rent from today to to the first September, when the rent would commence monthly afterwards.

Thank you

[Deleted User]

princeofpounds said:

[Deleted User] said:

princeofpounds said:

My previous reply was cross-posted so I wasn't aware that you hadn't actually signed the tenancy agreement yet. However, if you have it in writing that the LL will rent to you, and they accepted money from you, then you may still have a claim. Perhaps others will have input on that point.

I don't know why people accept not signing TAs until the last minute...

Surely all of the above was subject to signing a contract.

Yes - the question is whether the 'have it in writing that the LL will rent' constitutes a contract or not. I suppose it depends what it says. Other people have come along with the view that it won't constitute a contract - possibly, maybe even probably, but I'm not sure how definitive we can be; there has been a lot of communication between the landlord's agent and the OP, including instructions on how to move money, when to move in etc. A court may or may not impute an intention to contract from that activity - that is what is important, not necessarily the existence of formal signed tenancy agreement.

But I'm only raising the possibility, not making an unequivocal statement. As a reminder, my first post was cross-posted, so I was under the impression they had signed a contract already.

Edit to add: steampowered has explained what I was trying to get across much more eloquently than I.

All duly noted. Absolute mess from the landlords point of view, and poor tenant. When I say "surely subject to contact", I was more referring to the landlords poor practice in potentially entering into a contract without realising it! He/she has apparently ignored the possibility of contracts being formed verbally, in writing via email, or by actions. As we know a contract does not have to be in the form of a specific tenancy agreement document or in writing at all so it may already have formed.

steampowered

If the estate agent had made it clear that no legally binding contract would be formed until a written agreement was signed, and  that the Op was free to request the refund of his deposit at any point before then, then there would be no legally binding contract in place.

But if there was nothing in writing from the agents to suggest that something else was required for a legally binding contract to arise, then I think there is a very good chance that a judge would conclude that a contract had been formed.

Estate agents can't have it both ways. They can't ask for a non-refundable deposit and then turn around and say there is no contract. Either there is a contract, or there isn't !

Debbie1988

Nope nothing was made clear about a further contract! The thing that is so frustrating is that the Estate Agents are just fobbing us off and telling us our complaint is against the landlord. They are not being very helpful at all!
Who would you suggest i write a complaint to? Is it worth going to the Agency Ombudsman?
Thank you so much for all your help!

AdrianC

Debbie1988 said:

The major problem we are having is with the estate agents. I have raised a complaint with them, however they are fobbing us off saying we need to complain to the Landlord as our contract is with them. Does anyone know if this is correct? What part do the Estate Agents actually play in this?

The agent is the landlord's agent, employed by the landlord to act on his behalf in his dealings with you.
The agent has a contract with the landlord.
You may or may not have a contract with the landlord.
You do not have a contract with the agent.

The Estate Agents have refunded all monies paid for the bond, rent etc and have apologised (halfheartedly).

Whether you think they really meant their apology or not is, legally speaking, irrelevant.

I placed a review on their Facebook page and was threatened with being taken to court for Slander.

One of the defences in law against slander is that it's truthful.

Of course, as Johnny Depp is currently finding out, if it needs to go to court, you've already lost not just a HELL of a lot of blood pressure and money, but all dignity in the process... The truth is pretty much irrelevant.

But since slander is verbal defamation, whilst written defamation is libel, I think we can assume it was just an empty threat to make you take it down.

grumiofoundation

Debbie1988 said:

Nope nothing was made clear about a further contract! The thing that is so frustrating is that the Estate Agents are just fobbing us off and telling us our complaint is against the landlord. They are not being very helpful at all!
Who would you suggest i write a complaint to? Is it worth going to the Agency Ombudsman?
Thank you so much for all your help!

What do you want to happen? What do you think will come of complaining about the agents?

The agents may not be the best but your contract is with the landlord. Focus your attention on the landlord who has stopped you moving in to a property that you may have had the legal right to occupy.

I am assuming you are now having to find somewhere else to live? If deemed you have a tenancy with the landlord he would be liable for your costs due to breach of contract (whether tenancy had been formed agreed/contract formed is the pertinent question*). In this case they would be liable for additional moving costs etc and potentially for the difference in rent if you have to rent somewhere more expensive (although would have to be comparable I guess, don't go renting a mansion thinking they will cover!).

I would suggest it would probably be worth speaking to a solicitor since it does not seem a clear cut case as to whether a contract has been formed. 


*Edited see Comms comment below

Comms69

grumiofoundation said:

Debbie1988 said:

Nope nothing was made clear about a further contract! The thing that is so frustrating is that the Estate Agents are just fobbing us off and telling us our complaint is against the landlord. They are not being very helpful at all!
Who would you suggest i write a complaint to? Is it worth going to the Agency Ombudsman?
Thank you so much for all your help!

What do you want to happen? What do you think will come of complaining about the agents?

The agents may not be the best but your contract is with the landlord. Focus your attention on the landlord who has stopped you moving in to a property that you may have had the legal right to occupy.

I am assuming you are now having to find somewhere else to live? If deemed you have a tenancy with the landlord he would be liable for your costs due to breach of contract (whether tenancy had been formed is the pertinent question). In this case they would be liable for additional moving costs etc and potentially for the difference in rent if you have to rent somewhere more expensive (although would have to be comparable I guess, don't go renting a mansion thinking they will cover!).

I would suggest it would probably be worth speaking to a solicitor since it does not seem a clear cut case as to whether a contract has been formed. 

Small correction sorry, if a contract has been formed. a tenancy would be formed when the OP takes possession. 

Robbo66

grumiofoundation said:

Robbo66 said:

[Deleted User] said:

princeofpounds said:

My previous reply was cross-posted so I wasn't aware that you hadn't actually signed the tenancy agreement yet. However, if you have it in writing that the LL will rent to you, and they accepted money from you, then you may still have a claim. Perhaps others will have input on that point.

I don't know why people accept not signing TAs until the last minute...

Surely all of the above was subject to signing a contract.

Unless you have signed a tenancy agreement or a document that says contract which has also been signed by the landlord or their agent  which you say you haven't then no contract exists. You have no claim against the agent but you might be able to claim expenses via small claims from the landlord but this would be very hit and miss, probably more likely to be dismissed however.

This (bolded) is not necessarily true - an tenancy can exist without a contract (whether it does in this case don't know???).

That's true yes but then it becomes he said she said and that is the issue and why getting a written contact with a signature is always the best option. The OP said they had something in writing confirming the intention to rent the property to them and had paid over some money however this would have come from the agent and been paid back by the agent. I don't know how successful a small claims would be but they could enter this as evidence and hope the Judge sees it as an unwritten contract. As the cost of doing this is nominal I would probably give it a go.

macman

OP, what are you seeking from this? What are your actual quantifiable losses? Removal cancellation fees, yes. Decorating tools, no (since you still have them). That's what you can claim, not mental anguish, etc.
As an aside, I do despair at the standard of advice that CA are handing out, if they told you the agent was liable. 

Debbie1988

to be honest i know its not going to get me the house, i just want my complaint heard. I don't think the way this has happened is fair at all - whether that be from the Landlord or the Estate Agency - at the end of the day i was meant to be moving today. The stress and anxiety this has caused has been horrific - i wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy!
I have lost money which should be reimbursed as none of this is my fault. I am nervous about having to retract my notice with my current landlord. This may not go down favorably and may jeopardize future references from them!