Bank/Building Societies balance on date of death

Acphotos

My Father (now deceased) had accounts with Lloyd's Bank and Nationwide.  On the morning of his death I transferred £5,000 from Nationwide into a joint account in Lloyd's so that I would have funds available for his cremation and funeral expenses. The funds cleared from Nationwide into Lloyd's whilst my father was alive, however, unfortunately my father died that afternoon. 
I am going through probate, but the balance Nationwide supplied on the day of his death includes the £5,000, and it has also been counted in the Lloyd's statements, therefore it has been double counted. The net effect is that his estate is £5,000 higher than it should be, and if I had not spotted the error, I would be paying IHT at 40% of £5,000.

Is there a standard across all banks and Building Societies to define the exact time that the date of death transactions are reconciled? 

I don't want the IHT people to question the totals if they check the two balances and don't spot the error. 
How should I proceed minimise the fall out from this? 

Owain_Moneysaver

Obviously the Nationwide account owes Nationwide £5,000, which will count as a debt against the estate at the date of death.
You can either account for it there on the IHT form, or deduct £5000 from the account balance and put a note against it. The balance will be corrected by the first statement after death anyway. 

tasticz

what is the value of the estate?

badger09

Acphotos said:

My Father (now deceased) had accounts with Lloyd's Bank and Nationwide.  On the morning of his death I transferred £5,000 from Nationwide into a joint account in Lloyd's so that I would have funds available for his cremation and funeral expenses. The funds cleared from Nationwide into Lloyd's whilst my father was alive, however, unfortunately my father died that afternoon. 
I am going through probate, but the balance Nationwide supplied on the day of his death includes the £5,000, and it has also been counted in the Lloyd's statements, therefore it has been double counted. The net effect is that his estate is £5,000 higher than it should be, and if I had not spotted the error, I would be paying IHT at 40% of £5,000.

Is there a standard across all banks and Building Societies to define the exact time that the date of death transactions are reconciled? 

I don't want the IHT people to question the totals if they check the two balances and don't spot the error. 
How should I proceed minimise the fall out from this? 

That makes no sense. When you transfer £5k (or any other amount) from one account to another, it disappears from the sending account then appears in the receiving account. Sometimes this happens simultaneously, sometimes not, but it would never appear in both at the same time.

Unless you used a cheque. In which case, it wasn't a 'transfer' as most understand the word. In which case, simply adjust the balance for IHT purposes and include a note.

jimbo6977

badger09 said:

Acphotos said:

My Father (now deceased) had accounts with Lloyd's Bank and Nationwide.  On the morning of his death I transferred £5,000 from Nationwide into a joint account in Lloyd's so that I would have funds available for his cremation and funeral expenses. The funds cleared from Nationwide into Lloyd's whilst my father was alive, however, unfortunately my father died that afternoon. 
I am going through probate, but the balance Nationwide supplied on the day of his death includes the £5,000, and it has also been counted in the Lloyd's statements, therefore it has been double counted. The net effect is that his estate is £5,000 higher than it should be, and if I had not spotted the error, I would be paying IHT at 40% of £5,000.

Is there a standard across all banks and Building Societies to define the exact time that the date of death transactions are reconciled? 

I don't want the IHT people to question the totals if they check the two balances and don't spot the error. 
How should I proceed minimise the fall out from this? 

That makes no sense. When you transfer £5k (or any other amount) from one account to another, it disappears from the sending account then appears in the receiving account. Sometimes this happens simultaneously, sometimes not, but it would never appear in both at the same time.

Unless you used a cheque. In which case, it wasn't a 'transfer' as most understand the word. In which case, simply adjust the balance for IHT purposes and include a note.

It makes sense if Nationwide take their reference point as 9am and Lloyds take their reference point as 3:30pm and the transaction is made at midday.

74jax

badger09 said:

Acphotos said:

My Father (now deceased) had accounts with Lloyd's Bank and Nationwide.  On the morning of his death I transferred £5,000 from Nationwide into a joint account in Lloyd's so that I would have funds available for his cremation and funeral expenses. The funds cleared from Nationwide into Lloyd's whilst my father was alive, however, unfortunately my father died that afternoon. 
I am going through probate, but the balance Nationwide supplied on the day of his death includes the £5,000, and it has also been counted in the Lloyd's statements, therefore it has been double counted. The net effect is that his estate is £5,000 higher than it should be, and if I had not spotted the error, I would be paying IHT at 40% of £5,000.

Is there a standard across all banks and Building Societies to define the exact time that the date of death transactions are reconciled? 

I don't want the IHT people to question the totals if they check the two balances and don't spot the error. 
How should I proceed minimise the fall out from this? 

That makes no sense. When you transfer £5k (or any other amount) from one account to another, it disappears from the sending account then appears in the receiving account. Sometimes this happens simultaneously, sometimes not, but it would never appear in both at the same time.

Unless you used a cheque. In which case, it wasn't a 'transfer' as most understand the word. In which case, simply adjust the balance for IHT purposes and include a note.

If nationwide use the opening balance that day then of course it makes sence. 

badger09

74jax said:

badger09 said:

Acphotos said:

My Father (now deceased) had accounts with Lloyd's Bank and Nationwide.  On the morning of his death I transferred £5,000 from Nationwide into a joint account in Lloyd's so that I would have funds available for his cremation and funeral expenses. The funds cleared from Nationwide into Lloyd's whilst my father was alive, however, unfortunately my father died that afternoon. 
I am going through probate, but the balance Nationwide supplied on the day of his death includes the £5,000, and it has also been counted in the Lloyd's statements, therefore it has been double counted. The net effect is that his estate is £5,000 higher than it should be, and if I had not spotted the error, I would be paying IHT at 40% of £5,000.

Is there a standard across all banks and Building Societies to define the exact time that the date of death transactions are reconciled? 

I don't want the IHT people to question the totals if they check the two balances and don't spot the error. 
How should I proceed minimise the fall out from this? 

That makes no sense. When you transfer £5k (or any other amount) from one account to another, it disappears from the sending account then appears in the receiving account. Sometimes this happens simultaneously, sometimes not, but it would never appear in both at the same time.

Unless you used a cheque. In which case, it wasn't a 'transfer' as most understand the word. In which case, simply adjust the balance for IHT purposes and include a note.

If nationwide use the opening balance that day then of course it makes sence. 

I'm not aware of any bank which uses the opening balance for the day, for any purpose. 

jimbo6977

badger09 said:

74jax said:

badger09 said:

Acphotos said:

My Father (now deceased) had accounts with Lloyd's Bank and Nationwide.  On the morning of his death I transferred £5,000 from Nationwide into a joint account in Lloyd's so that I would have funds available for his cremation and funeral expenses. The funds cleared from Nationwide into Lloyd's whilst my father was alive, however, unfortunately my father died that afternoon. 
I am going through probate, but the balance Nationwide supplied on the day of his death includes the £5,000, and it has also been counted in the Lloyd's statements, therefore it has been double counted. The net effect is that his estate is £5,000 higher than it should be, and if I had not spotted the error, I would be paying IHT at 40% of £5,000.

Is there a standard across all banks and Building Societies to define the exact time that the date of death transactions are reconciled? 

I don't want the IHT people to question the totals if they check the two balances and don't spot the error. 
How should I proceed minimise the fall out from this? 

That makes no sense. When you transfer £5k (or any other amount) from one account to another, it disappears from the sending account then appears in the receiving account. Sometimes this happens simultaneously, sometimes not, but it would never appear in both at the same time.

Unless you used a cheque. In which case, it wasn't a 'transfer' as most understand the word. In which case, simply adjust the balance for IHT purposes and include a note.

If nationwide use the opening balance that day then of course it makes sence. 

I'm not aware of any bank which uses the opening balance for the day, for any purpose. 

OK so could you help with the OP's question, or one of them - is there a standard time that banks use?
I would add, if not a standard time, is there a relatively easy way of finding the relevant times for the various banks?

badger09

jimbo6977 said:

badger09 said:

74jax said:

badger09 said:

Acphotos said:

My Father (now deceased) had accounts with Lloyd's Bank and Nationwide.  On the morning of his death I transferred £5,000 from Nationwide into a joint account in Lloyd's so that I would have funds available for his cremation and funeral expenses. The funds cleared from Nationwide into Lloyd's whilst my father was alive, however, unfortunately my father died that afternoon. 
I am going through probate, but the balance Nationwide supplied on the day of his death includes the £5,000, and it has also been counted in the Lloyd's statements, therefore it has been double counted. The net effect is that his estate is £5,000 higher than it should be, and if I had not spotted the error, I would be paying IHT at 40% of £5,000.

Is there a standard across all banks and Building Societies to define the exact time that the date of death transactions are reconciled? 

I don't want the IHT people to question the totals if they check the two balances and don't spot the error. 
How should I proceed minimise the fall out from this? 

That makes no sense. When you transfer £5k (or any other amount) from one account to another, it disappears from the sending account then appears in the receiving account. Sometimes this happens simultaneously, sometimes not, but it would never appear in both at the same time.

Unless you used a cheque. In which case, it wasn't a 'transfer' as most understand the word. In which case, simply adjust the balance for IHT purposes and include a note.

If nationwide use the opening balance that day then of course it makes sence. 

I'm not aware of any bank which uses the opening balance for the day, for any purpose. 

OK so could you help with the OP's question, or one of them - is there a standard time that banks use?
I would add, if not a standard time, is there a relatively easy way of finding the relevant times for the various banks?

If I were to hazard a guess, it would be 10pm
https://www.nationwide.co.uk/support/support-articles/manage-your-account/transfer-limits-and-timescales#xtab:twistyitem1one-off-payments

I did attempt to get a definitive response from Nationwide via Live Chat yesterday but was not convinced Paul understood my question. He said that account balances were updated '24/7' but couldn't say at what time of day an account balance would be taken for the purposes of either calculating interest, or producing a statement.

As OP has not been seen since his/her post on 15th, I'm not spending any more time on this