Damp proofing along party wall

keepclimbing

Hi everyone

I recently bought my first home and found out after purchase that there were significant damp issues along the length of the party wall. I instructed an independent PCA surveyor, who identified rising damp and recommended that plaster will need removing and a new damp proof course installing along the length of the wall. 

I'm aware that I will need to notify my neighbour of the intended works, as per the Party Wall Act and give them the opportunity to consent or dissent. The problem is that the house has been unoccupied for months. I have never seen the owner and don't imagine I will get chance to run the proposed works past them. I found the owner's current address through a land registry search and am planning to send out a notice to them. However, I'm a bit concerned that they wont engage with the process (since they don't seem to take care of the house) and that it could end up going into dispute which may be costly. I'm also quite concerned because their property doesn't seem to be in a good state and I want to avoid any later claims for any pre-existing damages being made because of the work on my side. 

It's all a bit worrying for a first-timer and I'd really appreciate any advice anyone is able to give on the below questions:
1. Would it be worth sending a letter out to the owner (prior to the notice) to explain the proposed works?
2. If the owner gives consent and no dispute resolution/surveyor is involved, can the owner later claim that my work has caused damage to their property?
3. If the owner does not engage and I end up appointing a surveyor on their behalf, what happens if they also don't engage with the surveyor (i.e. to let them into the property to inspect) ? 
4. Would it be worth appointing a surveyor at this stage to try and mitigate problems going forward?

Many thanks in advance for your help 

Doozergirl

Is this a shared interior wall?  

Removing and replacing plaster does not fall under the PWA. 

What method are they proposing?  Fact is, nothing actually stops the damp, the waterproof render just blocks it in the wall.   If you can't access next door, it may be difficult  to find what the issue might be, but if the house is in bad condition you can almost guarantee there's a problem that side.   

Internal walls tend to be the hardest to treat, but the correct method is actually to use breathable materials (removing concrete and modern damp proof membranes that might have been installed) and replace with limecrete on the floors and lime plaster.  The problem is often modern materials that aren't suited to the house.  If you're hot and sweaty you don't out a plastic raincoat on - because it traps the moisture in and you'll end up even worse.  You want to remove anything that makes you sweaty. The same principle applies to old houses!   You must allow the walls to breathe.   If one person has waterproofing attached, then the water seeks to escape more on the other side.  

Water can track a long way as well, sonthere may well be an obvious source that needs to be stopped.    If there are issues outside, it will track under the house and escape up the interior walls if everything else in the way doesn't allow it to breathe.   I had a house where the owner had built up a patio some five courses above the original DPC, effectively flooding the house underneath.  They'd had damp proof injections that were utterly useless and waterproof plaster on the outside walls that disguised it for a time, but then it was creeping above that.    The damp was tracking through the underside of the house.  The problem was obvious, yet 'damp proof' salesmen have literally no idea what they are looking at or wouldn't have a job if they acknowledged the relatively simple fixes that can often be done.  RIcS surveyors perpetuate the industry because it moves any responsibility for 'damp' away from them as they can automatically suggest a damp survey with no effort.  

Do you have solid floors or suspended timber?  

Doozergirl

Have a read of this website... 

https://www.heritage-house.org/damp-and-condensation/managing-damp-in-old-buildings.html

keepclimbing

Thanks for your help, the house has solid floors. I can't see any obvious external factors but if the problem is in the adjoining property then I don't really know how I can find this out for certain?
The proposed work is:

• removal of skirting and plaster in the affected area up to approx 1m
• chemical injections along the floor base 
• plastering with a renovating plaster, leaving a gap of 25-50mm to the floor.

Doozergirl

Where have they said the water is coming from?  If you don't stop the water, it doesn't stop coming and will still be in the wall.  These people often show little awareness of the cause of problems.  

It's so depressing.  Snake oil salesmen.  

 

AdrianC

keepclimbing said:

I instructed an independent PCA surveyor, who identified rising damp and recommended that plaster will need removing and a new damp proof course installing along the length of the wall.

And I'll bet they couldn't possible "recommend" anybody to do the work, oh, no, absolutely independent...

The problem is that the house has been unoccupied for months.

Bet that's your source of the damp.

Look, it's very easy. Water goes down. Not up. Stick a brick on end in a bucket, so the bottom edge is wet... How long do you think it's going to take the top to be wet? Now stick another on top? How long? Exactly. Gawd knows what's happening in the empty house next door. But I bet that's the source of your damp. Trapping it in the wall isn't the solution. It's a bodge to mask the symptoms.

FreeBear

keepclimbing said: I instructed an independent PCA surveyor

You do realise that the Property Care Association (PCA) is nothing more that the trade body for the damp & timber treatment industry. The qualifications required for their "surveyors" are dubious at best, and the courses they take are not overseen by any recognised & credible education establishment. I have yet to meet any that really are independent.

If you want an honest diagnosis, find a surveyor that understands old buildings, doesn't have any links with the PCA or any company that undertakes damp "treatments". If they come armed with a damp meter (one of those devices with sharp prongs on the end), tell them where to stick it - A damp meter will only give reliable readings on untreated timber. Walls contain all sorts of salts, chemicals, and paints that result in false readings. That said, if used with a little bit of thought, a meter can give an indication of damp area. But to conclusively prove a wall is damp requires the drilling of a hole and the collected dust put in to a test rig designed for the purpose (that is assuming the wall isn't dripping with water).

If the wall truly is suffering from "rising damp", and I have only ever come across one case, then pumping chemicals in to the base and slapping waterproof render on is not going to cure it. All you will do, is push the problem next door, and will be going through the same process in another 8 or 10 years. Save your money and fix the root cause of the problem.

keepclimbing

Thanks 🙂 I will do some research and consider it carefully

Any advice on the questions re: surveyor and party wall notice?

dogshome

Not going to be easy, but I think the 1st check is to access the empty house next door, (Solicitors letter ?)

Any water leaks will eventually find their way to the ground floor, then it will pool on the damp proof course in the concrete floor and has the ability to climb a couple of bricks up any wall it's touching. 

David_Aldred

Stumbled across this thread - I posted some comments on dampness and timber issues within properties on this forum circa 2009 which were warmly received on here and have acted as an expert witness  with over 30 years experience in the subject matter though still learning - if those posts are still on here under my name it may be worth the person who asked the original question trawling back through them. 

Points that spring to mind - you do not state whether an original damp proof course or indeed later installed damp proof course are present, if present at what type and level the dpc's are in relation to the floor levels are at, whether those floors are original or not, what type of mortar the property is constructed with and whether the plaster is original or not. You also do not state the level of the adjoining property and their type of floors and whether there are original fireplaces / hearths or removed fireplaces and hearths on either side of the party wall. Neither do you state what type of solid floors are present as in their construction and whether the floor / wall / fireplace joint is sealed / whether the solid floor is acceptably dry or not and whether the floor has a barrier to ground moisture, if so whether that barrier extends into the wall dpc or not. Whether there has been any history of leakage and whether the solid floors now present have replaced an original suspended timber ground floor or not. You also do not state whether there is any history of excessive airborne moisture within the rooms of concern and any external issues which may be 'bleeding into' the party wall including high or perched water table.

Lastly you do not state how the rising damp was confirmed to you, for example was this done by a series of masonry and plaster samples up the height of the wall typically over a height of 1.5m and then subject to laboratory analysis as per BRE Digest 245 or whether there was some other investigation undertaken, or whether it was primarily an opinion based on non destructive testing.

Whilst I am a great advocate of lime and breathable construction one should perhaps be mindful that lime as brilliant as it is, is not suitable for all situations for example due to its inability to hold back contaminates within the wall which may have occurred over the years since the building was first constructed for one reason or another of which there may be many. 

Electrical damp meter in one form or another are a very useful tool in the right hands for detecting issues of concern that may require further investigation which may not be visible to the naked eye if you know how to use one appropriately.

The comments herein are not meant to be an answer for this particular case just a brief illustration of what information is not readily apparent within the post and would need to be researched before coming to a useful conclusion and providing a way forward.

Whilst the Property Care Association as with any organisation may have its faults and again as with any organisation there will be good elements and not so good, even down to whether a surveyor is not feeling well on that particular day to give their best, it does on the whole strive to improve the knowledge of its members with regular CPD events, it works closely with the British Standards, the Building Research Establishment, the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors and also works closely with English Heritage all of which would not entertain such partnership if they felt they were nothing but a bunch of cowboys out to fleece the public - it very much has come a long way since it was first formed and at the end of the day provides a national framework for people who have damp and timber problems to consult with be they contractors, freelance, independent or consultant members.

Some of its members act as and are readily accepted as expert witnesses for court work in these subject matters and have won cases for their clients who would otherwise most certainly have lost their cases without that expert knowledge.

Given all of that one may appreciate that dampness, timber and associated problems can be a complicated matter and it is trying to get the best advice one possibly can for a particular situation - at the end of the day the issue needs to be resolved in the most cost effective manner, that is also sympathetic to how the building was constructed, its occupants and those of the neighbours who may be impacted by the remedial works undertaken. 

Kindest regards to all and stay safe, 

David Aldred - Project Lead - Longbow jet hydroplane - British attempt at the Outright World Water Speed Record with serving Royal Navy pilot as driver