Surveyor missed serious defect, and immediately offered 'goodwill gesture'

Doozergirl

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Hi Tabitha.

I think this comes down to what is included in a Homebuyer's report. If it only includes an inspection of visible areas, then there's a good chance that the failing/non-existent lintel was not visible and might not have expressed itself in any other way either (can you prove the surveyor didn't open and close these doors?  I suspect there's every chance that he did - he would surely have walked around and in and out of every part of the house. And if that door had become difficult to close, he also would have declared this concern in his report.)

So, what's covered in this report? 

The offer of £500 as full and final compensation does, initially, seems suspicious, but it could also just be a wish to not get involved in a prolonged dispute which could cost both parties high legal fees - even if he truly believes he's done nothing wrong. As I said, if the 'lack' of lintel is not visibly obvious, was he supposed to punch an inspection hole through to examine it?  

As I understand LP provided by household insurance, they are great for providing free advice and guidance, and will then take on a case only if they are confident of winning. Ergo, their fees are covered by the likely win, so I don't think it'll affect your premium - but check yours.

I would suggest that you read the T&Cs of the HB's survey and what is covered, and - if it's clear that the presence of concealed lintels and other structural items is not included - I would suggest you have a poor case against him. 

If your LP advice is the same as this, then you may wish to accept his (now very generous) offer of £500 and put it towards the cost of that lintel...   (Mind you, if you now know that he isn't liable, I hope you'll be able to sleep at night if you do take his blood money... :-)  )

You may - quite likely will - find that the joists under that felt roof are in poor condition, at least towards their ends. Good chance also that it's poorly insulated. Cost of complete new flat roof (go for GRP...), around £10K. Cost of adding a new lintel? Oh, another £k? Ie - not the end of the world. 

While you are at it, replace the patio doors with aluminium bi-folds - cost around £4k. Value to improved quality of life and increased value? Priceless... :-)

The effects of missing lintels are visible.  You will see a sagging if there is a structural defect and/or cracking above the opening on taller structures.  The OP has said that the sagging is clear to the point of being 40mm or so.  That's significant.    If they're not surveying for structural movement, I'm not sure what they're surveying for.  

You don't need to check for the presence of the lintel or punch holes in anything.  

Not sure why the ends of joists would be particularly affected unless there's an unrelated leak causing rotting, or how a replacement roof links into the lintel issue (even though the surveyor has attempted to baffle the OP with BS and link the two). 

seradane

Just a further point: In professional fields such as surveying, their insurance companies will specifically require them to not admit to any wrongdoing, regardless of how obvious a mistake they may have made, or they may not cover them. So even if the surveyor completely and 100% knows he's in the wrong, he still has to deny wrongdoing or risk paying for all of it out of his own pocket. So I wouldn't really listen to any of his reasoning - instead talk to your legal cover or another surveyor as previous posters have suggested. Any legal case will base itself around what a 'reasonable' surveyor should have picked up - so if another surveyor is willing to say 'Yeah, that's super obvious, no way to miss it' you're going to have a lot easier of a time proving he was negligent.

Source: work in a similar field and always hate that I'm not allowed to apologise if i've messed up even something minor

AdrianC

Doozergirl said:
The OP has said that the sagging is clear to the point of being 40mm or so.  That's significant.

Yes, it is... but that 40mm sag was after the doors had been open for an extended period. There's not a lot of weight above the doors - so they would happily take it while closed without any visible ill effects.

The surveyor visited in Feb. He probably opened the doors, looked, closed them. If they closed cleanly at that time, there wouldn't have been 40mm of sag visible. There couldn't have been... We have no idea how long since they were last left open for an extended period, if ever, with it being an empty property and probate sale.

Jeepers_Creepers

Doozergirl said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Hi Tabitha.

I think this comes down to what is included in a Homebuyer's report. If it only includes an inspection of visible areas, then there's a good chance that the failing/non-existent lintel was not visible and might not have expressed itself in any other way either (can you prove the surveyor didn't open and close these doors?  I suspect there's every chance that he did - he would surely have walked around and in and out of every part of the house. And if that door had become difficult to close, he also would have declared this concern in his report.)

So, what's covered in this report? 

The offer of £500 as full and final compensation does, initially, seems suspicious, but it could also just be a wish to not get involved in a prolonged dispute which could cost both parties high legal fees - even if he truly believes he's done nothing wrong. As I said, if the 'lack' of lintel is not visibly obvious, was he supposed to punch an inspection hole through to examine it?  

As I understand LP provided by household insurance, they are great for providing free advice and guidance, and will then take on a case only if they are confident of winning. Ergo, their fees are covered by the likely win, so I don't think it'll affect your premium - but check yours.

I would suggest that you read the T&Cs of the HB's survey and what is covered, and - if it's clear that the presence of concealed lintels and other structural items is not included - I would suggest you have a poor case against him. 

If your LP advice is the same as this, then you may wish to accept his (now very generous) offer of £500 and put it towards the cost of that lintel...   (Mind you, if you now know that he isn't liable, I hope you'll be able to sleep at night if you do take his blood money... :-)  )

You may - quite likely will - find that the joists under that felt roof are in poor condition, at least towards their ends. Good chance also that it's poorly insulated. Cost of complete new flat roof (go for GRP...), around £10K. Cost of adding a new lintel? Oh, another £k? Ie - not the end of the world. 

While you are at it, replace the patio doors with aluminium bi-folds - cost around £4k. Value to improved quality of life and increased value? Priceless... :-)

The effects of missing lintels are visible.  You will see a sagging if there is a structural defect and/or cracking above the opening on taller structures.  The OP has said that the sagging is clear to the point of being 40mm or so.  That's significant.    If they're not surveying for structural movement, I'm not sure what they're surveying for.  

You don't need to check for the presence of the lintel or punch holes in anything.  

Not sure why the ends of joists would be particularly affected unless there's an unrelated leak causing rotting, or how a replacement roof links into the lintel issue (even though the surveyor has attempted to baffle the OP with BS and link the two). 

The effects of a 'missing' lintel are not always visible. 

I also suspect that there is a 'lintel' of sorts across there, tho' likely a substandard timber wallplate that has seemingly managed to do the job quite well since the 1980's and has likely now failed visibly only due to rot. And, since the joists will be sitting on that wallplate, they - too - are likely to have rotten ends. 

I'm not a forensic forum troll for nothing, I tell you. :-)

thearchitect

There must be a lintel arrangement of some description, or the roof would have collapsed.  The questions are therefore (a) what has been incorporated, (b) whether that is adequate, and (c) if there are defects such as rot which may have contributed to the current defect.   

In respect of (a), for example, there may be a timber plate arrangement which performs the role.  I have seen, but only on one occasion in a 30 year career, a very chunky load-bearing window frame and my father (a retired engineer) describes something similar a handful of times.  

My advice is that you have a chartered structural engineer carry out an inspection with a view to answering this questions and, seperately, setting out the works required to remedy the situation.  You will then be in a position to consider how best to pursue matters with the surveyor.  Fees for this engineering input in my part of the country are usually in the range £400-800 plus VAT. 

Jeepers_Creepers

thearchitect said:

There must be a lintel arrangement of some description, or the roof would have collapsed.  The questions are therefore (a) what has been incorporated, (b) whether that is adequate, and (c) if there are defects such as rot which may have contributed to the current defect.   

In respect of (a), for example, there may be a timber plate arrangement which performs the role.  I have seen, but only on one occasion in a 30 year career, a very chunky load-bearing window frame and my father (a retired engineer) describes something similar a handful of times.  

My advice is that you have a chartered structural engineer carry out an inspection with a view to answering this questions and, seperately, setting out the works required to remedy the situation.  You will then be in a position to consider how best to pursue matters with the surveyor.  Fees for this engineering input in my part of the country are usually in the range £400-800 plus VAT. 

The OP's first builder stated "There is absolutely no lintel above that door". I guess what he really meant was "There is no proper lintel above the door."

Anyhoo, the OP's situation is that she needs to know whether she has a legitimate claim against the surveyor for not realising/noticing there wasn't a 'proper' lintel there; if the roof didn't sag when he tried the door earlier in the year, is there anything else he should have done?  

I think that's the crux of this case. 

blue_max_3

He may have opened each door individually. And there may have been water ingress that had effected the structural integrity of the (probably) wooden lintel over time.
To be honest, it just proves that a survey is a complete waste of money in most cases.
I'm not sure this is a 'goodwill gesture', but a bit of hush money. Doubt you'd ever be able to make a case, but it wouldn't help his credibility.