Locked-out from flat by LL: Any help appreciated...

diggingdude

any chance the landlord could prove you abandoned the flat when you stopped paying?  Are you going to pay the rent you owe?

HampshireH

You seem to be unaware of your obligations as a tenant and those of your landlord.

Were landlord H&S requirements met?

Were your HMRC payments made?

You can't claim to require notice but then believe you werent obliged to pay rent for multiple reasons.

You also don't usually sublet a property at various times in 2 years if you are a tenant. Would be unusual.

You are either a tenant and owe rent, hmrc payments, bills (I think I missed how much PCM) or you werent a tenant, didnt owe a rent PCM and therefore notice could be invalid.

If you owe 6 months rent on a swanky 2 bed flat we can only presume you owe in excess of what 10-15k? (You said the rent was high) 

Are you planning to pay that? Are your contents or a similar value? 


Let's say the 2 weeks notice was legit..... why didnt you take heed and remove your belongings
 Why leave it till the locks were changed?.

Just trying to make sense of the scenario

[Deleted User]

A couple of things have occurred to me. Firstly, if you were never provided with an address for the serving of notices in England & Wales then you’d have been within your rights to withhold rent until provided with one. 

Secondly you can only have an AST for your main residence and it doesn’t sound as if this property has been your main residence for the past 6 months so perhaps a Section 21 or 8 is not required. 

Thirdly @HampshireH makes a point about the landlord’s responsibilities but the op was also a landlord when (s)he was subletting the property. Did the op comply with the necessary legislation? 

I think I might be with @deannatrois on this one. 

advicemse

Thanks for the response. I am trying to make sense of the situation and its difficult to explain it all on a forum. I appreciate the responses outlining the legal pitfalls and technical knowledge of the law without too many judgements on the situation based on the limited information I can type.

Lover_of_Lycra said:

A couple of things have occurred to me. Firstly, if you were never provided with an address for the serving of notices in England & Wales then you’d have been within your rights to withhold rent until provided with one. 

Service addresses are usually stated in an AST document. If the above is the case, wuldn't it mean that anyone with a 'verbal periodic tenancy' would not be required to pay rent? In this case the LL did not have a UK service address, just a whatsapp number (I don't think the LL really knew that they were doing or how to correctly structure this agreement and so kept it informal).

Secondly you can only have an AST for your main residence and it doesn’t sound as if this property has been your main residence for the past 6 months so perhaps a Section 21 or 8 is not required. 

The situation during that period was complicated due to lockdown and the need to assist others shielding. It also meant that getting the place fixed was complicated with workmen unavailable to fix the problems and hence it took a long time. I think we can appreciate how unprecedented the situation was for a lot of people, and hence the changes in the eviction laws over this time.

[Deleted User]

advicemse said:

Thanks for the response. I am trying to make sense of the situation and its difficult to explain it all on a forum. I appreciate the responses outlining the legal pitfalls and technical knowledge of the law without too many judgements on the situation based on the limited information I can type.

Lover_of_Lycra said:

A couple of things have occurred to me. Firstly, if you were never provided with an address for the serving of notices in England & Wales then you’d have been within your rights to withhold rent until provided with one. 

Service addresses are usually stated in an AST document. If the above is the case, wuldn't it mean that anyone with a 'verbal periodic tenancy' would not be required to pay rent? In this case the LL did not have a UK service address, just a whatsapp number (I don't think the LL really knew that they were doing or how to correctly structure this agreement and so kept it informal).

Secondly you can only have an AST for your main residence and it doesn’t sound as if this property has been your main residence for the past 6 months so perhaps a Section 21 or 8 is not required. 

The situation during that period was complicated due to lockdown and the need to assist others shielding. It also meant that getting the place fixed was complicated with workmen unavailable to fix the problems and hence it took a long time. I think we can appreciate how unprecedented the situation was for a lot of people, and hence the changes in the eviction laws over this time.

Not necessarily, the address for the serving of notices doesn't have to be written in an AST.  The landlord could give the address for the serving of notices in some other document and note i said "England or Wales" not "UK".

What exactly is it you want to achieve here?  Do you want to move back into the property?  After moving out did you ever intend to return?

advicemse

45002 said:

greatcrested said:

* You pay rent (albeit erratically - but clearly she expects it), and she provides accomodation. You have a tenancy.

* she is not a resident landlord.

* It is an AST - based on oral agreement not written agreement.

* no fixed term was agreed (as I understand you) so it is a Contractual Period Tenancy

* Eviction must be done via a S21 or S8 Notice expiring 3 months after service.

* Changing the locks and giving 2 weeks notice  is a criminal offence - see Protection from Eviction Act 1977section 1

A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a)on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding [F2the prescribed sum] or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both;
(b)on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or to both.

* Try to pursuade a locksmith to break in and change the lock. Sometimes they request proof you have the right to do this (eg ownership or tenancy agreement), but anything with your address on it (driving licence) might be enough.

* contact the police. Often they claim housing matters are civil, not criminal, so you need to be insistant (quote the Act to them). At the very least get a crime number. Apart from anything else you need to pre-empt the LL accusing you of breaking in. So get your complaint on record. If you are lucky, they may take up your case and interview the LL.

* Contact the local council. Trading Standards can prosecute the LL. If the council have a 'Private Tenancy Officer' or similar, contact them too.

* contact Shelter.

* search to see if there is a local Neighbourhood Legal Centre offering free advice/help

* apply to the county court for an eviction injunction

* Read:

http://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/eviction/what_is_illegal_eviction

Illegal evictions also covered by 1988 Housing act/50/section 27/28 E&W

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/section/27?view=extent

Thanks for above info. I am reviewing and investigating the options.

It would be a struggle to pay the back rent and even more so when I could'nt live in the property during that time. There maybe some evidence on record to this effect with all the council call outs to fix the water leaks that were coming into the flat and its electronics during that time. The LL was unresponsive to messages during that period and later said it was due to her being "unwell". The only communication was after lock-down to indicate she is keeping the place vacant, intends to sell it and wants all my goods removed within 2 weeks.

advicemse

Lover_of_Lycra said:
What exactly is it you want to achieve here?  Do you want to move back into the property?  After moving out did you ever intend to return?

I didn't move out - was locked out. If the LL wants her property back - I would just want the due notice period. Simples.

This will provide time to find an alternative and too arrange the removal of my goods which will not be a simple task at this point of time.

I have messaged her to ask if she changed locks and she replied (with her normal style of including a row of !!!!'s after every sentence) -  saying that she has changed locks to provide access for someone else to fix the leak and to ensure I do not access her property without her permission.  ....No idea what to make of that? I have already fixed most of the leak issues and it feels very ignorant and dismissive of any UK tenancy laws. 

Moving foward, I think I should reply:

* requesting immediate access

* due notice as a tenancy has been formed 

* outlining her actions could be a criminal offence. 

If there is anything else I should say, welcome thoughts. 

[Deleted User]

advicemse said:

Lover_of_Lycra said:
What exactly is it you want to achieve here?  Do you want to move back into the property?  After moving out did you ever intend to return?

I didn't move out - was locked out. If the LL wants her property back - I would just want the due notice period. Simples.

This will provide time to find an alternative and too arrange the removal of my goods which will not be a simple task at this point of time.

I have messaged her to ask if she changed locks and she replied (with her normal style of including a row of !!!!'s after every sentence) -  saying that she has changed locks to provide access for someone else to fix the leak and to ensure I do not access her property without her permission.  ....No idea what to make of that? I have already fixed most of the leak issues and it feels very ignorant and dismissive of any UK tenancy laws. 

Moving foward, I think I should reply:

* requesting immediate access

* due notice as a tenancy has been formed 

* outlining her actions could be a criminal offence. 

If there is anything else I should say, welcome thoughts. 

There aren't any UK tenancy laws because there is no UK law.

Why not just ask to get in and get your belongings then?  If your landlord isn't prepared to give you due notice then what?  Are you prepared to take legal action against her?  Are you prepared that she might come after you for unpaid rent and that HMRC could come after you for unpaid tax?

rik111

Are you really for real, you want her to give you notice whilst you live there rent ? Why do you need notice if you have been living elsewhere, just go back to whence you came and give this poor lady her flat back. It sounds to me there is a lot more to this story than you are letting on. Either way the free ride is over and maybe if you ask her really nicely she might allow you access to collect your belongings. There is no point trying to go over the legal options to further con rent free living.....

Jeepers_Creepers

advicemse said:

Lover_of_Lycra said:
What exactly is it you want to achieve here?  Do you want to move back into the property?  After moving out did you ever intend to return?

I didn't move out - was locked out. If the LL wants her property back - I would just want the due notice period. Simples.

This will provide time to find an alternative and too arrange the removal of my goods which will not be a simple task at this point of time.

I have messaged her to ask if she changed locks and she replied (with her normal style of including a row of !!!!'s after every sentence) -  saying that she has changed locks to provide access for someone else to fix the leak and to ensure I do not access her property without her permission.  ....No idea what to make of that? I have already fixed most of the leak issues and it feels very ignorant and dismissive of any UK tenancy laws. 

Moving foward, I think I should reply:

* requesting immediate access

* due notice as a tenancy has been formed 

* outlining her actions could be a criminal offence. 

If there is anything else I should say, welcome thoughts. 

That's a useful message to have recorded - she's admitted locking you out. The LL seems as bright as she is dodgy. 

Anyhoo, to sum up, you have lived in this London property for around 2 years, pretty much rent-free (or at least vastly reduced), and were responsible for keeping other parts sublet and for general maintenance? She now wants to sell. You haven't paid anything to her for 6 months? And the whole thing is a legal minefield, best not navigated? That's the gist?

From what's been said, she has almost certainly blurred or actively bludgeoned a number of legal lines in this arrangement, so she'd be very foolish indeed to pursue you for anything, but I suspect you aren't on solid legal ground either. 

I'd suggest you arrange with her to collect your belongings - as she's requested - and get the hell away. 

What on earth are you trying to achieve by keeping yourself involved in this deeply murky deal any longer than you need to?! From what you've said you seem to have somewhere else you can stay if needed, and - good news - rent prices in London have seemingly fallen and many more places are available.