Locked-out from flat by LL: Any help appreciated...

advicemse

greatcrested said:

The rent arrears could be used to evict but she still has to serve a S8 Notice with 3 months expiry before going to court.

Thanks. Understand S8 or S21 notices are 3m after 26-Mar-20. I think court evictions are put on hold until at least 23 Aug-20, which I assume is the next step if the notice is not complied with. I don't understand why she didn't not just provide S8/S21 notice 3m in advance rather than taking this action?
I am unsure if she has been advised that this is "tennacy at will" and therefore just feels its a reasonable notice period. Don't know if I missing anything here?

greatcrested

advicemse said:

greatcrested said:

The rent arrears could be used to evict but she still has to serve a S8 Notice with 3 months expiry before going to court.

Thanks. Understand S8 or S21 notices are 3m after 26-Mar-20. I think court evictions are put on hold until at least 23 Aug-20, which I assume is the next step if the notice is not complied with. I don't understand why she didn't not just provide S8/S21 notice 3m in advance rather than taking this action?
I am unsure if she has been advised that this is "tennacy at will" and therefore just feels its a reasonable notice period. Don't know if I missing anything here?

From your description I made the assumption that she either ws ignorant of the legal process, or was interpreting your occupation differently (there is a 'guardian' concept, but not where rent is paid), or was wilfuly ignoring it and hoping you'd just roll over and leave.

As rik111 suggested, leaving might be the best practical option in view of the potential for being chased for rent arreas, but your firt post indicated you wanted to stay but were being locked out.

45002

greatcrested said:

* You pay rent (albeit erratically - but clearly she expects it), and she provides accomodation. You have a tenancy.

* she is not a resident landlord.

* It is an AST - based on oral agreement not written agreement.

* no fixed term was agreed (as I understand you) so it is a Contractual Period Tenancy

* Eviction must be done via a S21 or S8 Notice expiring 3 months after service.

* Changing the locks and giving 2 weeks notice  is a criminal offence - see Protection from Eviction Act 1977section 1

A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a)on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding [F2the prescribed sum] or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both;
(b)on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or to both.

* Try to pursuade a locksmith to break in and change the lock. Sometimes they request proof you have the right to do this (eg ownership or tenancy agreement), but anything with your address on it (driving licence) might be enough.

* contact the police. Often they claim housing matters are civil, not criminal, so you need to be insistant (quote the Act to them). At the very least get a crime number. Apart from anything else you need to pre-empt the LL accusing you of breaking in. So get your complaint on record. If you are lucky, they may take up your case and interview the LL.

* Contact the local council. Trading Standards can prosecute the LL. If the council have a 'Private Tenancy Officer' or similar, contact them too.

* contact Shelter.

* search to see if there is a local Neighbourhood Legal Centre offering free advice/help

* apply to the county court for an eviction injunction

* Read:

http://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/eviction/what_is_illegal_eviction

Illegal evictions also covered by 1988 Housing act/50/section 27/28 E&W

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/section/27?view=extent

advicemse

rik111 said:

Of course if she can prove you have been making regular payments for rent which ceased in December 2019 and you claim you have a tenancy agreement, you will now owe her nigh on 6 months rent. If you do Force her to evict you these rent arrears will continue to clock up and you could walk away owing her an awful lot of money. You could make a defence that the place was uninhabitable but then it could be looked upon as to why you stayed and had to be evicted. I think you may be getting away lightly here and should just walk away before you end up 8n serious debt.

Thanks for this. Am considering all the great advice been given from everyone.
On this post - I think there is question as to why the LL did not question the lack of rental payment when things needed to be fixed up and during the COVID-19 time? Nothing was raised from her in terms of lack of rental payment for those 6m? Surely the right thing to do was to request payment if a rent periods were missed and then follow that with S8 notice for non-compliance if a payment is not received? Isn't this the way to do it? Even if tenants are evicted using the lawful S8 process, I assume attaining past rent would require further action? - isn't that scuppered due to the lack of any correct process in this particular case? 

A smaller point - as I was subletting I found the rental market in Central London to be quite elastic.The actual market rent for a flat during and after the COVID-19 lock down was very much down. There is a small argument that the relative high rent that was being requested was not realistic considering the market conditions. The pandemic has changed the rental market drastically, I assume there are lots of tenants facing these issues and LL's that have to now change their expectations. It surely takes these parties having those difficult conversations and not just locking people out.  

Comms69

advicemse said:

rik111 said:

Of course if she can prove you have been making regular payments for rent which ceased in December 2019 and you claim you have a tenancy agreement, you will now owe her nigh on 6 months rent. If you do Force her to evict you these rent arrears will continue to clock up and you could walk away owing her an awful lot of money. You could make a defence that the place was uninhabitable but then it could be looked upon as to why you stayed and had to be evicted. I think you may be getting away lightly here and should just walk away before you end up 8n serious debt.

Thanks for this. Am considering all the great advice been given from everyone.
On this post - I think there is question as to why the LL did not question the lack of rental payment when things needed to be fixed up and during the COVID-19 time? Nothing was raised from her in terms of lack of rental payment for those 6m? Surely the right thing to do was to request payment if a rent periods were missed and then follow that with S8 notice for non-compliance if a payment is not received? Isn't this the way to do it? Even if tenants are evicted using the lawful S8 process, I assume attaining past rent would require further action? - isn't that scuppered due to the lack of any correct process in this particular case? 

A smaller point - as I was subletting I found the rental market in Central London to be quite elastic.The actual market rent for a flat during and after the COVID-19 lock down was very much down. There is a small argument that the relative high rent that was being requested was not realistic considering the market conditions. The pandemic has changed the rental market drastically, I assume there are lots of tenants facing these issues and LL's that have to now change their expectations. It surely takes these parties having those difficult conversations and not just locking people out.  

No such legal argument exists

saajan_12

advicemse said:

There were regular payments from Sept -18 until about Dec-19. It has been a while since a payment has been made - the flat had problems with water leaks during Dec onwards, electricity had to be off for periods so I had to get used to living in alternative places. During the COVID-19 period I was only there for short periods of time (emptying buckets and trying to get the council people to fix water leaks) - it was privately owned in a council block. I think she understood there would be an issue with payment as I was relying on subletting & lodgers to pay the high rental amount - thus she didn't seem to say anything about the lack of payment during the lockdown.  

Either you still have a tenancy agreement since 2018 and owe ongoing rent (so 6x monthly and counting) or the property was uninhabitable and the tenancy could be considered frustrated / mutually terminated, evidenced by you not living there or paying rent. You can't have it both ways. 

advicemse said:

Thanks for this. Am considering all the great advice been given from everyone.
On this post - I think there is question as to why the LL did not question the lack of rental payment when things needed to be fixed up and during the COVID-19 time? Nothing was raised from her in terms of lack of rental payment for those 6m? Surely the right thing to do was to request payment if a rent periods were missed and then follow that with S8 notice for non-compliance if a payment is not received? Isn't this the way to do it? Even if tenants are evicted using the lawful S8 process, I assume attaining past rent would require further action? - isn't that scuppered due to the lack of any correct process in this particular case? 

A smaller point - as I was subletting I found the rental market in Central London to be quite elastic.The actual market rent for a flat during and after the COVID-19 lock down was very much down. There is a small argument that the relative high rent that was being requested was not realistic considering the market conditions. The pandemic has changed the rental market drastically, I assume there are lots of tenants facing these issues and LL's that have to now change their expectations. It surely takes these parties having those difficult conversations and not just locking people out.  

No and No. 
Rent is payable regardless of whether it is requested or chased. The landlord CAN sue or serve Section 8, but they are not obligated to and lack of this does not mean the rent is forgiven. They have 6 years to sue for rent arrears  and this claim isn't scuppered by having left it for some time. 

Rent is generally a fixed £ amount as standard, so unless you have something in writing saying that it would vary, you owe the last agreed rent. Whether you derive your income to pay rent from a salary or rental income from lodgers is irrelevant to your liability to the landlord. If it was too 'not realistic' your options were to negotiate a lower rent IF the landlord agreed or server notice and leave. There's no automatic way the rent is modified to what you think is realistic. 

Pinkbunny2000

You can legally break in

then sue the LL

advicemse

saajan_12 said:

No and No. 
Rent is payable regardless of whether it is requested or chased. The landlord CAN sue or serve Section 8, but they are not obligated to and lack of this does not mean the rent is forgiven. They have 6 years to sue for rent arrears  and this claim isn't scuppered by having left it for some time. 

Rent is generally a fixed £ amount as standard, so unless you have something in writing saying that it would vary, you owe the last agreed rent. Whether you derive your income to pay rent from a salary or rental income from lodgers is irrelevant to your liability to the landlord. If it was too 'not realistic' your options were to negotiate a lower rent IF the landlord agreed or server notice and leave. There's no automatic way the rent is modified to what you think is realistic. 

Thanks. Point taken. I was just sounding out (in the smaller point) about how the pandemic has changed the ground despite it not been contractually recognised. 

If a 'verbal' periodic AST is established and a property is inhabitable for a period of time, can the LL be made responsible for the tenant costs in finding alternative options? - and rent payments reasonably withheld? Would a tenant period away from the property until it is sorted, be valid and reasonable? Would the periodic AST still be in place despite the rent not being paid and thus continued once the flat is habitable again? And therefore, I assume the LL is still required to provide due notice to get possession?  

[Deleted User]

When this thread started I was sympathetic.  Then Rik's post and I thought hmm, he has been staying elsewhere for six months, conditions must have been awful so maybe he is better just walking away and putting this behind him, avoiding having to pay the very expensive six months rent owed (pragmatic point of view, sometimes the legal way isn't worth it).  Now watching you wriggling on the end of the line, trying to find any reason to avoid paying rent (imaginative schemes but not based on law), I am losing any sympathy.

Just find somewhere you can afford to live.  You didn't have to choose to live there with the expensive rent and lack of repairs, if the situation was as you describe.  With your absence for 6 months, I assume you already have, to be honest.

Regarding your left behind items, (I assume you weren't going back daily to use them, this is why they were left behind) you can pursue their loss but I imagine the owed six months rent will come up again at some point.  Whether its worth it only you can know.  I would assume stuff you needed and was valuable you didn't leave behind to get damaged in the leaks.

With such an expensive property, one would assume the freeholder was chasing the owner because other residents were complaining - don't want their items damaged etc?

saajan_12

advicemse said:

saajan_12 said:

No and No. 
Rent is payable regardless of whether it is requested or chased. The landlord CAN sue or serve Section 8, but they are not obligated to and lack of this does not mean the rent is forgiven. They have 6 years to sue for rent arrears  and this claim isn't scuppered by having left it for some time. 

Rent is generally a fixed £ amount as standard, so unless you have something in writing saying that it would vary, you owe the last agreed rent. Whether you derive your income to pay rent from a salary or rental income from lodgers is irrelevant to your liability to the landlord. If it was too 'not realistic' your options were to negotiate a lower rent IF the landlord agreed or server notice and leave. There's no automatic way the rent is modified to what you think is realistic. 

Thanks. Point taken. I was just sounding out (in the smaller point) about how the pandemic has changed the ground despite it not been contractually recognised. 

If a 'verbal' periodic AST is established and a property is inhabitable for a period of time, can the LL be made responsible for the tenant costs in finding alternative options? - and rent payments reasonably withheld? Would a tenant period away from the property until it is sorted, be valid and reasonable? Would the periodic AST still be in place despite the rent not being paid and thus continued once the flat is habitable again? And therefore, I assume the LL is still required to provide due notice to get possession?  

Depends, what exactly were the issues with the property? The landlord would be expected to fix them in a reasonable time, but rent would continue to be due so  the highlighted likely ISN'T reasonable.