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CCJ - Unsure If I can fight it! - Page 5

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CCJ - Unsure If I can fight it!

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  • Coupon-madCoupon-mad Forumite
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    You cannot have had three PCNs in a single day.  They are wrong and that's a good thing.

    it appears the SAR has only evidence 2 of the 3 tickets which were issued like 20-30 mins apart,
    show us that evidence

    and also what appears to be be issued at the request of the residents and a 'neighbourhood manager'? 
    show us that evidence, or the form of words they used.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • BangeF2BangeF2 Forumite
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    Above are the details of the residents request


    This is the ticket issued. 

    More details of the neighbourhood manager



    Second ticket issues approx 30 min later of the 1st one above on the same day
  • Coupon-madCoupon-mad Forumite
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    Second ticket issues approx 30 min later of the 1st one above on the same day

    Hahahaha, what the heck did that ticketer think he/she was doing?!  This is exactly the sort of thing to show the Judge, in relation to showing them that you have prospects of defending this ludicrous and exaggerated claim, if he/she will set aside the CCJs.  Also, why are there even two CCJs?  One claim (at least) should be entirely struck out, given the doctrine of cause of action estoppel.

    And that's not an entire landowner authority document as it says nothing about the definitions, restrictions, etc.  Have you got the whole thing?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • nosferatu1001nosferatu1001 Forumite
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    Also the reason given is they want to avoid arguing! 
    Those signs arent the actual signs in pklace - its a digital mockup! 
    A neighbourhood manager cannot possibly have authorty to sign on behalf of a landowner...
  • BangeF2BangeF2 Forumite
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    Second ticket issues approx 30 min later of the 1st one above on the same day

    Hahahaha, what the heck did that ticketer think he/she was doing?!  This is exactly the sort of thing to show the Judge, in relation to showing them that you have prospects of defending this ludicrous and exaggerated claim, if he/she will set aside the CCJs.  Also, why are there even two CCJs?  One claim (at least) should be entirely struck out, given the doctrine of cause of action estoppel.

    And that's not an entire landowner authority document as it says nothing about the definitions, restrictions, etc.  Have you got the whole thing?
    The above are the only things in the case evidence report relating to the 'neighbourhood manager' and 'residents requests'
    The only other thing was this about the signage:


    I feel like with the 2 CCJs I could argue that if they used their records and traced things correctly, they would have added the second CCJ claim (which only issued one parking invoice) to the first CCJ claim and that having to dispute two CCJ's is a complete of waste of court time ( tbh this whole this is a waste of everybody's time but scammers must scam!) 
  • BangeF2BangeF2 Forumite
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    Hello all.
    Im just putting together the defence. I wondered if I need to be including anything about the signage:

     ‘’      The above point was recently tested in the County Court at High Wycombe, in the case of Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd v Bull & 2 Others (B4GF26K6, 21 April 2016), where District Judge Glen dismissed all three claims, stating in his judgment that:

     “If the notice had said no more than if you park on this roadway you agree to pay a charge then it would have been implicit that PCM was saying we will allow you to park on this roadway if you pay £100 and I would agree with Mr Samuels’ first analysis that essentially the £100 was a part of the core consideration for the licence and was not a penalty for breach. The difficulty is that this notice does not say that at all. This notice is an absolute prohibition against parking at any time, for any period, on the roadway. It is impossible to construct out of this in any way, either actually or contingently or conditionally, any permission for anyone to park on the roadway. All this is essentially saying is you must not trespass on the roadway. If you do we are giving ourselves, and we are dressing it up in the form of a contract, the right to charge you a sum of money which really would be damages for trespass, assuming of course that the claimant had any interest in the land in order to proceed in trespass.”

    While this is a County Court decision and therefore not binding, it is on all fours with the present case and may be considered as persuasive. A full transcript of the Approved Judgment for the above case will be provided in the event that this case proceeds to a hearing.

    5.      In addition, the Consumer Rights Act 2015 rules that if signage has multiple interpretation the interpretation most favourable to the consumer applies. It is clear from this the signage with the largest font should apply.

    6.      In the alternative, if it was held that the signage was contractually valid, it would be impossible for a motorist to have read the terms and conditions contained therein from a moving or stopped vehicle, and if the vehicle is stopped, the ‘contravention’ according to the Claimant is already committed.

    7.      The above point was recently tested in several cases regarding Hayes and Harlington station. There a similar situation arises as the vehicles were charged for briefly stopping but the signs are far away from vehicles and high up

    In all cases it was ruled that no contract was entered by performance as the signage could not be read from a vehicle. No transcripts are available but as PCM UK were the claimant in all cases they will be fully aware of the cases; C3GF46K8, C3GF44K8, C3GFY8K8  , 

    8.       The IPC code of conduct states that a grace period must be allowed in order that a driver might spot signage, go up to it, read it and then decide whether to accept the terms or not. A reasonable grace period in any car park would be from 5-15 minutes from the period of stopping. This grace period was not observed and therefore the operator is in breach of the industry code of practice. Additionally no contract can be in place by conduct until a reasonable period elapses.

    9.      Thus the signage is simply a device to entrap motorists into a situation whereby the Claimant sends them invoices for unwarranted and unjustified charges, for which motorists can have no contractual liability due to the terms and conditions not having been sufficiently brought to their attention. This activity is bordering on, if not actually crossing the boundary of, a criminal offence of Fraud By False Representation.

    Additionally, the contract fails informational requirements for contracts established in the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation And Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, enacted 13 June 2014.

    Any alleged contract would be a distance contract for services as defined in The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

    The regulations define three types of contracts; distance contracts, on premises contract and off-premises contracts.

    The definitions concern themselves with how a contract is concluded (and in particular if face to face contact occurs during this process) and not where the contract is eventually performed. Thus, if a consumer books a hair styling appointment over the web, that is a distance contract even though they go to the salon for the actual styling. If they re-book at the salon, that will be an on-premises contract. If they meet their stylist in Tesco, arrange for an appointment and immediately phone the salon to confirm, that will be an off-premises contract. All these contracts are performed on-premises, but concluded in different ways.

    The regulations define an on-premises contract as:

    “on-premises contract” means a contract between a trader and a consumer which is neither a distance contract nor an off-premises contract;

    Thus a contract cannot be on-premises if it is a distance contract.

    The regulations define a distance contract as:

    “distance contract” means a contract concluded between a trader and a consumer under an organised distance sales or service-provision scheme without the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer, with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including the time at which the contract is concluded;

    • This is clearly an organised service-provision scheme (for parking)

    • The contract is clearly concluded without the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer.

    • There is clearly the exclusive use of one means of distance communication (signage) up to and including the time at which the contract is concluded.

    This is therefore a distance contract.

    None of the exemptions in regulation (6) apply. No vending machine or automated premises was used to conclude the contract. Any contract would be concluded by parking and walking away.

    Regulation 13 lists information to be provided before making a distance contract. The contract fails to provide the required information listed in Schedule 2. As per 13(1) the contract is therefore not binding.

    Alternatively if the contract is on or off-premises, the information rules still apply and the contract is not binding as per either 9(1) or 10(1).

    Additionally, the charge of £100 is a penalty and unfair consumer charge. The leading case on this matter is ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67. In that case it was ruled that the penalties rule was engaged but the charge was not unfair because the motorist had the bargain of 2 hours of valuable free parking in exchange for the risk of paying £100 for overstaying. The risk was clearly brought to the attention of the consumer in a huge font. Here, there is no valuable consideration on offer and no bargain for the consumer, and the charge is hidden in small print. It is submitted that no motorist would agree to pay £100 instantly on stopping and this is therefore and unfair consumer term in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

    1     In order to issue parking charges, and to pursue unpaid charges via litigation, the Claimant is required to have the written authority of the landowner, on whose behalf they are acting as an agent, in this case Peel Land & Property Ltd. No evidence of such authority was supplied by the Claimant at any time, and the Claimant is put to strict proof of same, in the form of an unredacted and contemporaneous contract, or chain of authority, from the landowner to the Claimant.

    1     In addition to the £100 ‘parking charge’, for which liability is denied, the Claimant’s legal representatives, Gladstones Solicitors, have artificially inflated the value of the Claim by adding costs of £50 which I submit have not actually been incurred by the Claimant, and which are artificially invented figures in an attempt to circumvent the Small Claims costs rules using double recovery. The Court is invited to report Gladstones Solicitors to the Solicitors’ Regulation Authority for this deliberate attempt to mislead the Court, in contravention of their Code of Conduct.

    1     The Court is invited to dismiss this Claim, and to allow such Defendant’s costs as are permissible under Civil Procedure Rule 27.14.  ‘’ 

    I don't know if all of this applies to me and they're talking about a layby area and a attendant who would pop out and issue a fine immediately to anyone who stopped in this lay by to even stop to look at the signs etc, however it is the same attendant who is likely to have issued fines to me in an area near the layby with the same signage. Look forward to your thoughts. 

  • nosferatu1001nosferatu1001 Forumite
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    Not a fine. Never use that word
    What is that that youve copied in? Your defence or one copied elsewhere?
    You know if it applies to you by reading and comparing to your case...
  • BangeF2BangeF2 Forumite
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    10 Posts Name Dropper
    Not a fine. Never use that word
    What is that that youve copied in? Your defence or one copied elsewhere?
    You know if it applies to you by reading and comparing to your case...
    invoices! not a fine. got it. 
    The above was found as part of a defence statement on the prankster website (i cant post links yet) talking about PCM signage.
  • nosferatu1001nosferatu1001 Forumite
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    OK, but the newbies thread already talks about signs - what does this add?
  • BangeF2BangeF2 Forumite
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    OK, but the newbies thread already talks about signs - what does this add?
    That the signage was not clear about who and who cannot park? ok may be I should just stick to the CCJ sent to the wrong add. right? 
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