Upstairs Noise

tesspme

Hello, would really appreciate any help with this - hope it's right place for it, I wasn't sure where else to go.

We've just bought the lease of a downstairs flat in a small 1 bed Victorian terraced house - our first house which we love. A family of four started renting the upstairs flat a week before we moved in. Of the four, the wife and the youngest child are really quiet. The older child (20) can be very noisy on and off. All three are in during most of the day, and apart from the odd row and some noisy phone calls it's pretty quiet. We get some noise through the floor but they have carpet and there is plaster-board in the ceiling, so that doesn't really bother us much. However, the husband comes home in the evening at 6.30 and he shouts non-stop until around 11pm. When he is home, they often have whole family arguments where they all scream at each other. They have their windows open all the time and we currently only have single glazing (though we will be putting in double glazing and draught-proofing, but when it's hot we really need the windows open at night), so the sound of his voice in particular travels right into our bedroom from outside rather than from through the house (though it does come both ways, including down the stairs and through the partition wall into our living room). He quite often plays music or TV very loudly too. However, the really big issue is that he gets up at 4.30am every morning except Sunday to go to work, and he shouts at his wife from the moment he wakes up. Their bedroom is above ours. He also has a horrific smokers cough which is continuous from when he wakes up. I am using earplugs and can sometimes sleep through this noise, but I cannot sleep through the front door being loudly slammed at 5am. All in all, it's becoming unbearable.

We've been here a month and have spoken to them very politely, several times. He's said that it isn't his fault as the house is badly built.The wife has said that it is cultural (they are Romanian) and it's just how they are. She's also implied that because they are paying so much for their rent, they should have the right to behave how they like in their own home. I am really sympathetic to their situation- they are in a flat that's too small, with no outdoor space, and I do understand there are cultural differences. If I felt like they were making any attempt to be considerate I'd try and live with it, but they aren't and I think that's unacceptable.

I'd be really grateful for advice on what to do next. For instance, if we speak to the upstairs leaseholder (their landlord) is he obliged to do anything? He's already carpeted the floor and the noise generally comes through the windows and the partition wall between their stairs and our flat, but presumably they've signed a contract and there will be a noise clause they are in breach of regarding the early morning noise at most? Would there be any use in getting in touch with the freeholder? Should we be approaching the council or speaking to a lawyer? Or should we just accept it and try and live with it?

Very grateful for any help.

MovingForwards

England, Wales, Scotland?

tesspme

We're in England!

MovingForwards

https://www.gov.uk/how-to-resolve-neighbour-disputes

Any disputes have to be declared if you sell, so best off trying to resolve it informally.

Neighbours make or break a home when they are selfish bum holes.

tesspme

Thanks for this - I suppose it's in the best interest of the upstairs leaseholder to help us resolve it informally as well then, which is a positive.

NameUnavailable

Your lease will contain wording about not causing noise or disturbance to neighbours, you need to read it and then take it up with the leaseholder of the upstairs flat initially, or formally with the management company or freeholder if you can't resolve informally. 

If the leaseholder for upstairs hasn't obtained formal permission to let their flat they may also be in breach of their lease.....

NameUnavailable

Another thing, inconsiderate people are usually very intolerant of other inconsiderate people. If you start playing loud music or banging doors late at night you may find they get upset with you........

greatcrested

Upstairs leaseholder may not be concerned. His rent is paid and unless they're causing damage to his property, their lifestyle is not his problem.

And theres not much he can do either.He can have a 'chat' whch may/may not help, and he can evict, which takes..... a long time. And costs him money.

Davesnave

The upstairs leaseholder is running a business, not the family's grandparent. If the rent comes in on time and they look after the place, why would their landlord involve themself in what sounds like a clash of lifestyles?

We've had very many threads on the forum about downstairs flat dwellers suffering noise and upstairs residents being complained at for what they feel is normal everyday activity. This often because properties are badly built, but older ones like yours were never designed to modern standards or expected to be used as flats, so the risks of buying/renting in one are all the greater.

Sorry this won't be what you want to hear, but I doubt if there is anything you can do, except hope the 'overcharged' family move on to be replaced with quieter residents.

another_casualty

Sorry to hear about your situation op . 

Long post ....

I can only compare my share my issues since buying my leasehold gd flr Victorian flat 3 years ago.  When I moved into my home , there was pungent food smells in the communal area a lot ! It very rarely affected inside my flat tho' , so small mercies etc .
That was coming from a family of 4 ( and a year later 5 ) from a non British family . 

They constantly left my mail on the floor instead of being tidy . They left bicycles and footballs in the communal area also . The mother asked if it was ok to leave her pram there 
I said okay, but not with the bike behind it . They then constantly used to leave the communal door wide open . This of course , attracted many spiders into my home and lucky for me I haven't had rodents in my home yet . 

There was one occasion during the beast from the east ( remember that?) , where I had my sweatshirt on and no trousers . I felt the cold coming through my flats , despite heating full on . I went out and closed the front door which was left wide open . Then.. my door closed behind me and I was locked out with no trousers 🙀😸. So I asked the mother above for a cab company and I had to go to my friends house for a spare set of keys with no trousers on . The cab driver was cool about it though 😸
The kids got very hyper last summer and started running in front of my window while I we watching the chase. In the end , I only made a couple of polite requests to the managing agents about the running in front of the window and leaving the communal door open .
i was fair and very patient.  

They moved out a few weeks ago . I heard a woman's loud voice with somebody .
I waited outside my front door for about 2o mins or so . It turns out ,the woman owns the flat and moved out when she had a baby, and her dad is doing up the place now.
I said to her a family of 5 was too much and told her my issues including when they stole one of my food boxes from gvt as I'm self isolating . I'm on edge at the moment , but will watch everybody and let them know I own my flat and not be invisible . I did say 5hat if I have enough, I'll let my flat to people I won't mention here. Just a threat .I hope that I'm lucky . I mentioned to her the issues I've had with the other flat above ...

The other flat used to have a woman with a young child . Very quiet . She used to go outside for a smoke on occasions and ask if I minded her smoking outside my window .
i didn't , and things were good . Never heard a sound . 
Then a year ago, someone bought the flat to let . The couple who moved in were young .
initially the were very quitet . They had one party at Christmas and that was it .
The guy looks like a druggy . Proves I'm right ..
From March until May ,there have been random parties sometimes on a Friday , a Saturday and even a weds . The woman is rarely there . She has a lot of amazon packages .
Being law abiding and in total isolation , I was getting angry/ worried . He was bringing 3-4 friends around . They were snorting , smoking outside my small bedroom window .
The smell of super skunk was going through my flat . They randomly were stamping on my ceiling singing etc . I banged up on ceiling only on 2 occasions . 

On one occasion on a Saturday,they all turned up with party hats bottles of Stella in hands and smokes as always. They were playing mock football in the area where cars are parked and communal outdoor space . One of the group called my neighbour a f@@ing w@@er
Neighbour is director of managing agents .
Finishing off here , I will say that I had a few phone discussions and emails with managing agents . In a way I realise calling them scum as well as undesireable May affect when I may have to sell up. Then again , investors probably won't care and they may be gone.
plus being in isolation magnified anxiety I never had before .
The druggys have stopped as I sent a direct letter to the owners of the flat . Pllus I spoke to the letting agents on 2 occasions . 

I found the owners address from the land registry £3. 

OP..Don't put up with it ! 
Hope it gets sorted . 

another_casualty

Forgot to mention , my flat and above are 2 bedroom flats . The layout is converted Victorian hose was nursing home and conerted to two blocks .
my block is split into 4 flats. 2 above me , and one to the side who have their own entrance and garden