Agency refusing to give me new countersigned rental contract till the current one expires

SouthLondonUser

They have realised the property needs an up to date gas safety certificate, which has been booked for next week. My hypothesis on why they don't want to give me a countersigned copy of the contract:
1) The property does not meet all the regulatory tickboxes like the gas safety certificate; they only want to give me the contract once all the boxes are ticked, even if it has already been signed.
2) They probably think that I would start some kind of complaint to get the extra week of deposit back before the old tenancy ends. They probably think that not giving me the contract now means I have no way to demand the extra deposit back now because I have no way to prove the contract has been signed. BTW, I explicitly stated I am fine with getting the refund when the new contract starts, it's the countersigned contract I want now.

I will not do digital signatures ever again! They cannot pull these stunts with paper contracts; this is the equivalent of snatching the sheets after I sign and saying: "we will keep these and only give them to you when we say so".

anselld

SouthLondonUser said:

They cannot pull these stunts with paper contracts; this is the equivalent of snatching the sheets after I sign and saying: "we will keep these and only give them to you when we say so".

They can.  This is the equivalent of you signing in advance and the agent/landlord signing on move-in day (which is not uncommon).

You should also remember that the agent acts for the Landlord.  That is the definition of agent.  So you cannot separate out the Landlord from the agent behaviour.  It is meaningless to say the Landlord is a decent chap but the agent have pulled a fast one.  They are acting for the Landlord so the Landlord shoulders responsibility.  You should take the matter up with the Landlord if you remain dissatisfied.  It is a behaviour issue, not an e-signature issue.

SouthLondonUser

Let me rephrase: with paper signatures, if the tenant and the landlord meet in person and sign at the same time, then the tenant has a countersigned copy of the contract, unless the agent or the landlord snatch it from the tenant's hands. 
With an e-signature, the tenant gets the contract only if/when the agent says so.

It is not uncommon for landlords to sign at the last minute, but it is stupid of the tenant to accept it, because, well, the tenant runs the risk of the landlord changing his mind until then! This risk is very limited in my case since it's an amendment of an existing contract, but, still, it beggars belief what kind of nonsense tenants are so used to accept passively.

anselld

SouthLondonUser said:

the tenant gets the contract only if/when the agent says so.

.. which is what is instructed by the Landlord.

SouthLondonUser

anselld said:

SouthLondonUser said:

the tenant gets the contract only if/when the agent says so.

.. which is what is instructed by the Landlord.

I don't know that for sure. It may even be that this is their "policy" and didn't even think of asking the landlord. I have had a few cases before where the landlord told them what on earth are you doing, I never told you to do that.
I will certainly pick that up with the landlord.

SouthLondonUser

The landlord said he was surprised and totally unaware of it. He may be lying but I believe him.
Mental note to myself (and piece of advice for anyone interested): when signing a contract electronically, try to add a clause that states something like: this Agreement shall be null and void unless the Tenant receives a countersigned copy of the Agreegnement [3] business days after the Tenant signed it. If they push back, it's a red flag.

For what it's worth, my interpretation is that the agency's behaviour is a combination of:

• most tenants do not read their contracts, have little bargaining power and are used to swallowing whatever nonsense the agencies come up with. If I were to guess, I'd say this agency is not used to seeing tenants who dare negotiate and question a contract
• even if tenants complain, what can they really do other than moving, often to a property managed by another agent who is not any better? The ombudsman complaint process has often been described as a joke; it is a voluntary scheme with very little teeth. 
• as pointed out above, the law is unclear on when exactly the partial deposit refund is due. Maybe they want to play it safe in the sense that they think that, if they gave me the contract now, I could claim the refund now. Anyway, it should not be their call - it should be the landlord's!!!

SouthLondonUser

steampowered said:

The agencies I've dealt with do the same thing - they only release a copy of the signed tenancy agreement when the tenancy starts.

I'm not sure why they do it to be honest. I'm not quite sure what they think they are achieving.

You mean that you have dealt with as a tenant? Did you know they would do this when you signed? Haven't you ever pushed back?

greatcrested

SouthLondonUser said:

the tenant gets the contract only if/when the agent says so.

anselld said:

SouthLondonUser said:

the tenant gets the contract only if/when the agent says so.

.. which is what is instructed by the Landlord.

To be fair, there are many landlords (overseas ones are typical of this) who simply instruct their agent to 'manage' the tenancy, from tenant-find, to contract, to rent collection etc. And who leave the decisions of how to do each step up to the agent.

Yes, legally the LL is ultimately liable for everything, but in practice it may well be the agent who decides when and how to sign and/or hand over a copy of the contract.

anselld

greatcrested said:

SouthLondonUser said:

the tenant gets the contract only if/when the agent says so.

anselld said:

SouthLondonUser said:

the tenant gets the contract only if/when the agent says so.

.. which is what is instructed by the Landlord.

To be fair, there are many landlords (overseas ones are typical of this) who simply instruct their agent to 'manage' the tenancy, from tenant-find, to contract, to rent collection etc. And who leave the decisions of how to do each step up to the agent.

Yes, legally the LL is ultimately liable for everything, but in practice it may well be the agent who decides when and how to sign and/or hand over a copy of the contract.

I agree.  Though appointing an agent to do as they wish and then walking away is still an "instruction".