Does Furlough change how redundancies are done?

fittaedae

Hello,  
On march 18 completely out of the blue I and 23-24 others were pulled separately into MD's office and told that due to corona virus we were being laid off.  We were ordered to work 1 months notice.  I called ACAS and asked for advice that day to be told that as I started work there on 2nd April 2018 and would still be employed by the company on 2nd April 2020 I was due 2 years redundancy and any holidays outstanding and notice pay if it was not worked.  I tried to speak to our HR (the PA to directors the HR company is an external company who wont talk to employees) she has no idea of HR sadly and also the Wages/accounts person who promptly ripped my face off and went and reported me to the CEO for asking questions!  CEO promptly pulls my partner who is my boss in and tells him if I don't stop asking questions his job is at risk too..... incidentally there has been no 30 day consultation on the redundancies either.

Then lock down happened, I got an email through payroll system to say I was now on furlough.  We have had no correspondence, no online meetings nothing to keep us informed of what is happening.  Then I get another letter in June saying that as per the meeting in March my furlough was being terminated on 31st July, very confusing letter no clarity nothing.  I appealed asking for clarification in writing as to why many other members of staff who have been with the company less than 6 months to a year were being kept on and would someone please confirm if I would get the redundancy due, what holidays I would be paid and a breakdown of the money I would receive.  I eventually after over a week get an email from his PA saying "CEO wants to see you in his office at 11 am this Friday" no reason why, nothing to say I can take a representative with me, who will be present,  nothing...

I have spoken to ACAS who are really not much help as they firmly sit on the fence and Citizens Advice not much help either.  I don't know what I will receive I don't have savings and cannot afford a Employment Law Specialist at £250 an hour!  They are saying that I was given notice on 18th March and was removed from the payroll system that day.  I did not receive a P45, notice pay nor holiday pay.  I have checked the Government Gateway and they are still processing my NI & Tax via real-time which means I am still on the payroll system, they say that Covid has changed the redundancy situation and that I am not due redundancy and I am no longer employed by the company and they put me on furlough out of the goodness of their heart....  I cant get help through my household insurance which I have employment issues cover as in their eyes I am still employed.  I cannot apply for benefits as according to them I am due redundancy and I am still employed. 
I am frantically applying for absolutely any job but there are very few out there.  I ended up on anxiety medication in the days after getting my notice due to the stress and I am now on anti depressants since the letter and again no information.  Its very much a mess   Any help appreciated.

sharpe106

No point taking a specialist with you would cost you more then you got pretty much anyway. 

Have you been getting furlough pay?

Your notice starts the date you are told in writing, so ask them where it was in writing in March.

unholyangel

Unfortunately ACAS can tell you what your rights are but can't give legal advice - their advisors aren't legally qualified. They're just following their guidance. 

You might want to see if you would qualify for aid or if any employment solicitors offer a free half hour consultation - write down important questions you want to ask in advance, so you use the half hour as best as you can. Alternatively, there is citizens advice but they are overwhelmingly not legally qualified either and also only go by guidance. They do sometimes have solicitors who volunteer but they are usually stretched pretty thin (understandably given the gov cut their funding while closing other departments and giving them the work of those departments) and are really only to advise the CAB staff/volunteers. 

If you progress to the tribunal stage then at that point acas should offer mediation. Although be aware mediation is simply them passing messages. They don't actually mediate in the traditional sense by trying to smooth things over. 

But no, there has been no change to employment law (and therefore redundancy). 

fittaedae

I have been receiving furlough since April, normal pay at end of March, notice was given, letter was received on 23rd March to my home as they posted 2nd class and did not give to me, employment terminated on 18th March, entitled to 1 month notice that you must work.  Last day would be 17th April. My P45 would be posted in due course, did not receive.  I received a letter through payroll system stating I was now on Furlough on 30th March. Then letter in June stating I was terminated in March and they were terminating my furlough payments on 31st July, I would receive 1 months pay in lieu of notice (others have asked about this and apparently our July furlough pay is our notice pay??) They refuse to talk to us about our employment.... hence the issues!

fittaedae

My job still exists as my partner who as i say was my boss is now having to try and do so hes on the phone asking for help! Others in company in the exact same situation..

molab

Loophole with furlough / redundancies?...

I am currently furloughed by my agency that I temp as a zero hours contract worker for. My agency explained there is a chance that the agency workers will need to removed from furlough by August, since they don’t know if they can afford to pay the NI contributions / pension (obviously I understand that pressure and support them as they’ve been good to me).  

I had a sudden thought That perhaps if I (gently) offered To pay those contributions back to the agency / arrange something of that nature..this could be a solution of keeping me on furlough? 

Thoughts on that?

i realise it could appear a bit dodgy but it’s probably the only incident where it isn’t actually dodgy or unethical. We are just trying to think of a way to keep both workers and the agency afloat and financially survive...it isn’t about trying to evade tax or be unethical. 

molab

Loophole with furlough / redundancies?...

I am currently furloughed by my agency that I temp as a zero hours contract worker for. My agency explained there is a chance that the agency workers will need to removed from furlough by August, since they don’t know if they can afford to pay the NI contributions / pension (obviously I understand that pressure and support them as they’ve been good to me).  

I had a sudden thought That perhaps if I (gently) offered To pay those contributions back to the agency / arrange something of that nature..this could be a solution of keeping me on furlough? 

Thoughts on that?

i realise it could appear a bit dodgy but it’s probably the only incident where it isn’t actually dodgy or unethical. We are just trying to think of a way to keep both workers and the agency afloat and financially survive...it isn’t about trying to evade tax or be unethical. 

Jeremy535897

Firstly, you should read all the government guidance carefully. See:
https://www.gov.uk/redundancy-your-rights

You should be entitled to statutory redundancy. Also, they need to consult if 20 or more people are being made redundant. The matter is complicated by the threat to your partner's role. Coronavirus and furlough have no impact on redundancy entitlement.

If your employer will not pay your redundancy pay, you may have to go to an employment tribunal. See https://www.acas.org.uk/your-rights-during-redundancy  There is a time limit as you will see from this link.

They may furlough you for your notice period. The rate you will be paid may be your furloughed rate or full rate. It depends on how the contract of employment has been amended for furlough. You should also receive accrued holiday pay at your normal rate.

I am not sure why they would pay you "in lieu" of notice as they seem to be giving you your notice and furloughing you.

A meeting with the CEO will be daunting, but he will be aware of the risks that he could become embroiled in an employment tribunal case. If there is any evidence of threats to your partner's position, this must be kept, along with all other communications.

sharpe106

They have given you notice period and have informed you. In that case you have been lucky and been furloughed and got an extra month notice period. They could have ended you a month after telling you that you were redundant back in April.  It is the position that gets made redundant not the job. It does not matter if others are doing the work or they are too busy now to do the work. They just can't employ somebody to do your job.  

unholyangel

fittaedae said:

I have been receiving furlough since April, normal pay at end of March, notice was given, letter was received on 23rd March to my home as they posted 2nd class and did not give to me, employment terminated on 18th March, entitled to 1 month notice that you must work.  Last day would be 17th April. My P45 would be posted in due course, did not receive.  I received a letter through payroll system stating I was now on Furlough on 30th March. Then letter in June stating I was terminated in March and they were terminating my furlough payments on 31st July, I would receive 1 months pay in lieu of notice (others have asked about this and apparently our July furlough pay is our notice pay??) They refuse to talk to us about our employment.... hence the issues!

Yeah they can't do that. Just ask them how their claim meets the requirements of CJRS if you weren't employed by them. It is the length of the employment that determines redundancy rights. Also ask them how they interpreted the part of government guidance that explicitly states unemployment rights are unaffected and employees continue to accrue holiday etc? 

Either they've made a fraudulent claim and would have to repay the monies or you were still employed by them and are entitled to redunancy. They can't have it both ways. Although they'd need a time machine to undo furloughing you.

p00hsticks

molab said:

Loophole with furlough / redundancies?...

I am currently furloughed by my agency that I temp as a zero hours contract worker for. My agency explained there is a chance that the agency workers will need to removed from furlough by August, since they don’t know if they can afford to pay the NI contributions / pension (obviously I understand that pressure and support them as they’ve been good to me).  

I had a sudden thought That perhaps if I (gently) offered To pay those contributions back to the agency / arrange something of that nature..this could be a solution of keeping me on furlough? 

Thoughts on that?

i realise it could appear a bit dodgy but it’s probably the only incident where it isn’t actually dodgy or unethical. We are just trying to think of a way to keep both workers and the agency afloat and financially survive...it isn’t about trying to evade tax or be unethical. 

Sorry, I don't know the answer, but you really need to start a new thread of your own rather than piggy back onto an existing one as your question is not really the same as the original post and it get confusing as to which questions the subsequent posts realte.