Fence and party wall

bromley89

Hi,

I have a semi detached garage with my neighbour, see picture attached.

According to a recent party wall agreement, (2 years old), the virtual red line runs in the middle of the common garage wall as I would expect. At the back of the garage where the new fence will be erected there is a brick wall around 2m long which is clearly on the side of my neighbour, ie not running from the middle of the common garage wall. The garage wall is 10cm wide so 5cm will be the middle where i would expect the red boundary line to be. After this 2m long wall we have a very large garden where my neighbour wants to erect the fence (his responsibility). My neighbour is arguing that the boundary is wrong and he wants to take the 2m wall down and bring the fence into my side, actually he things that 8.8cm of the garage wall belongs to him and only 1.2cm is mine = total 8.8 +1.2 = 10cm. Won't even try to explain why 8.8 for him. There is also a single brick support pillar at the end of the 2m long wall, 10cm wide.

He is basically refusing to back down threatening that he will not erect the fence otherwise. What are my options here. I understand that if a brick wall exists for more than 10 years it is evidence and admission that that part is mine anyway and also he can not take it down without a party wall agreement in place. I am basically happy to give him few centimetres to build the fence but not 8.8, 1.2cm to his favour. I am not happy for him to destroy the wall, he has already removed some bricks!

The deeds also show the red line in the middle of the 2 garages, but it's hard to have an accuracy of few cms to be fair.

I have attached a pic (not to scale) that explains the situation and. Where do you think the boundary of the new fence should be and what are my rights regarding the brick wall?

Thanks very much for any advice.

ciderboy2009

Surely life is too short to worry about a few centimeters?  Is it really going to make that much of a difference to you?

ProDave

It is easy by measurement to tell exactly where the centre of the garage is.

Tell him you expect the centre of the new fence to be aligned to the centre of the garage party wall.

Proving exactly where the correct place at the far end of the garden is is difficult, so I would argue the present position of the fence is correct and draw a straight line from there to the garage party wall.

Doozergirl

8.8cm of the 10cm of the garage wall?  So you're actually arguing about 3.8cm in a 'very large garden'

 

Is this a wind up? 

The bloke wants to run the fence as a party fence which he is paying for.  Let him.    The deeds probably only demand that he mark the boundary, not pay for every brand new fence.   

You have no rights over the wall.  It is his wall if it is on his side and he can take it down if he wants to.  

stevenway

Steve the party Wall Surveyor here - 1. don't rely on the red line,.. when scaled up its probably 1200mm wide on the ground.  2. a party wall award does not determine the boundary location.  3. not sure where the 10 year evidence thing comes from but I think you're barking up the wrong tree. 4. if it's their wall on their land they can take it down without a party wall agreement (but they might not be able to rebuild a wall without one) but the pillar might be party.  5.  You can engage surveyors to try and identify the boundary - these things have a habit of getting very expensive (£20k+) very fast and ruining neighbour relations forever.  6. a boundary line does not necessarily run through the centre of the garage walls - what if one was built first up to the boundary and then the other closed against it?  In that case the boundary will be on the face of the wall.

pinkshoes

If you’re getting this stressed over losing 3.8cm of garden I would suggest selling up and moving to a detached house rather than wasting money in solicitors fees over this.

Jeepers_Creepers

Hi Bromley.

Were the two garages built at the same time? When was the brick wall behind it built?

What was the purpose of the recent party wall agreement which produced the red line that seemingly runs down the middle of the centre garage wall?

And why doesn't your neighbour accept that the red line is the boundary line? 

princeofpounds

bromley89 said:

"Won't even try to explain why 8.8 for him. There is also a single brick support pillar at the end of the 2m long wall, 10cm wide."

Well, I suggest you try, because this may be important for understanding his rationale and suggest sensible ways to proceed. Besides, he may even be right (Although in the absence of any other evidence it's quite likely the boundary runs through the middle of the wall and the middle of the support post. On one face of the garage wall is the likely Scenario B. Were your properties constructed together?).

The existence of the short brick wall doesn't really mean much to be honest, even if it has been there for years. It's only 2m long and it doesn't sound like it's a feature that relates to delineating the boundary on a title plan. . He can take it down whenever he wants. It's on his land and you do not require it for support. 

Your options? Put up your own fence and wall to the fullest extend of your land. He is highly unlikely to be under any actual obligation to fence. Or... reach a compromise agreement. Short of a somewhat expensive legal dispute and a determined boundary the law isn't going to provide the sort of solution you seem to want. 

Davesnave

princeofpounds said:

 Short of a somewhat expensive legal dispute and a determined boundary the law isn't going to provide the sort of solution you seem to want.

This^

Do you have a good few £thousand tucked away to defend your few centimetres of very large garden, allowing for the possibility you might lose some and/or end up with a dispute to declare if you sell?

It's very doubtful the neighbour has any obligation to provide a fence or wall, so if he's willing to fund one, I'd be inclined to think it smarter to save money and let him.