Dismissal letter received - some questions

[Deleted User]

Hi

Well after one meeting with an external HR company who were appointed by my employers, i have been selected for redundancy as my "position is no longer required in the current climate". Letter received, on notice straight away and a finish date at the end of July.

In my meeting, i asked re selection criteria etc and was told that there was none at that point as my company was planning to take my role abroad,.
I recorded the conversation and listening back now, i refer to me asking by email previously to my boss what the selection criteria was - the hr advisor answer was, "the issue with selection criteria, is that he's going to outsource the whole function, so there is no selection criteria as such"
Moving on he says, and whether there is something else i can do within the company, that's for me to tell him.   Should i be having to propose jobs to them and tell them where i can work or should they have been telling me what alternatives there was if any ?
In my reply, i tell him that i can do x and y - but the reality is that there is only 1 full time position within the company, (aside from the half dozen people doing my role who of course were up aswell) and that is a senior manager who has been the only staff member not furloughed, so how could i actually propose a viable alternative - are part time roles seen as acceptable alternatives  ? 
Hr advisor even says "i don't know what else goes on there" when i says if we are all up for the chop, then there isn't any alternative roles.
Later in the meeting, i offered to work at a vastly reduced rate, but that obviously wasn't even enough for my bosses.

My point basically regarding this is, surely if there is no real alternative, then what could i have possibly offered to do within the company, if no other positions are even available ? Do i have any leverage with this in respect of an appeal ?

So back to my dismissal letter, and my "position is no longer required in the current climate" bit. Perhaps unwisely, i replied to my boss who sent the letter disputing this straight away saying how could be my role not be required when it is still actually being done albeit by outsourced £3 an hour staff abroad..he replied a few days later saying that some changes to our software had eliminated the need for my job entirely (going against what the hr guy said).  But the job is still being done by the outsourced guys yet he avoids that as a reason in any way whatsoever, and is sticking to the line that my job is gone completely.  He then goes on to say that the decision is based simply on finances as the company no longer has the funds available to pay employees to work when there's no work for them to carry out anymore.

Sorry if this is confusing to read, but i can't help but think that as my job is still being done abroad, surely the statement that my position is no longer required is wrong.  Then when he replies to my email,he cites system changes and also "simply finances" as reasons - don't they have to say that when they are giving reasons for me getting binned ?

I have no wish to work for them anymore, so that isn't my endgame here, but i can't help but think that all the different reasons, and the process i've been thru doesn't seem as it should be.
Thanks for anyone patient enough to read this - apologies for the rambling nature.
Any advice appreciated.
(and if anyone can recommend any templates to use for an appeal, that would be lovely)

Undervalued

tom_154 said:

Hi

Well after one meeting with an external HR company who were appointed by my employers, i have been selected for redundancy as my "position is no longer required in the current climate". Letter received, on notice straight away and a finish date at the end of July.

In my meeting, i asked re selection criteria etc and was told that there was none at that point as my company was planning to take my role abroad,.
I recorded the conversation and listening back now, i refer to me asking by email previously to my boss what the selection criteria was - the hr advisor answer was, "the issue with selection criteria, is that he's going to outsource the whole function, so there is no selection criteria as such"
Moving on he says, and whether there is something else i can do within the company, that's for me to tell him.   Should i be having to propose jobs to them and tell them where i can work or should they have been telling me what alternatives there was if any ?
In my reply, i tell him that i can do x and y - but the reality is that there is only 1 full time position within the company, (aside from the half dozen people doing my role who of course were up aswell) and that is a senior manager who has been the only staff member not furloughed, so how could i actually propose a viable alternative - are part time roles seen as acceptable alternatives  ? 
Hr advisor even says "i don't know what else goes on there" when i says if we are all up for the chop, then there isn't any alternative roles.
Later in the meeting, i offered to work at a vastly reduced rate, but that obviously wasn't even enough for my bosses.

My point basically regarding this is, surely if there is no real alternative, then what could i have possibly offered to do within the company, if no other positions are even available ? Do i have any leverage with this in respect of an appeal ?

So back to my dismissal letter, and my "position is no longer required in the current climate" bit. Perhaps unwisely, i replied to my boss who sent the letter disputing this straight away saying how could be my role not be required when it is still actually being done albeit by outsourced £3 an hour staff abroad..he replied a few days later saying that some changes to our software had eliminated the need for my job entirely (going against what the hr guy said).  But the job is still being done by the outsourced guys yet he avoids that as a reason in any way whatsoever, and is sticking to the line that my job is gone completely.  He then goes on to say that the decision is based simply on finances as the company no longer has the funds available to pay employees to work when there's no work for them to carry out anymore.

Sorry if this is confusing to read, but i can't help but think that as my job is still being done abroad, surely the statement that my position is no longer required is wrong.  Then when he replies to my email,he cites system changes and also "simply finances" as reasons - don't they have to say that when they are giving reasons for me getting binned ?

I have no wish to work for them anymore, so that isn't my endgame here, but i can't help but think that all the different reasons, and the process i've been thru doesn't seem as it should be.
Thanks for anyone patient enough to read this - apologies for the rambling nature.
Any advice appreciated.
(and if anyone can recommend any templates to use for an appeal, that would be lovely)

Normally it is quite lawful for a company to outsource work to another company and to make the staff who used to do the work internally redundant.

For example, if it is cheaper to buy widgets from China, a company may decide to close its own widget making department down and make the staff redundant. Rightly or wrongly that is a business decision which they are quite entitled to make.

So unless your company are directly employing staff abroad, to do what used to be your work, I don't think you have a valid argument.

daveyjp

Redundancy means your role is no longer required, it does not mean the work you do is no longer going to be undertaken.

Generally if work carried on in house is transferred to an outside company any affected staff may be offered TUPE to the new provider, if the new provider has vacancies.

If work is outsourced abroad this won't happen so redundancy is the only option.

LittleVoice

tom_154 said:

Hi

Well after one meeting with an external HR company who were appointed by my employers, i have been selected for redundancy as my "position is no longer required in the current climate". Letter received, on notice straight away and a finish date at the end of July.

In my meeting, i asked re selection criteria etc and was told that there was none at that point as my company was planning to take my role abroad,.
I recorded the conversation and listening back now, i refer to me asking by email previously to my boss what the selection criteria was - the hr advisor answer was, "the issue with selection criteria, is that he's going to outsource the whole function, so there is no selection criteria as such"
Moving on he says, and whether there is something else i can do within the company, that's for me to tell him.   Should i be having to propose jobs to them and tell them where i can work or should they have been telling me what alternatives there was if any ?
In my reply, i tell him that i can do x and y - but the reality is that there is only 1 full time position within the company, (aside from the half dozen people doing my role who of course were up aswell) and that is a senior manager who has been the only staff member not furloughed, so how could i actually propose a viable alternative - are part time roles seen as acceptable alternatives  ? 
Hr advisor even says "i don't know what else goes on there" when i says if we are all up for the chop, then there isn't any alternative roles.
Later in the meeting, i offered to work at a vastly reduced rate, but that obviously wasn't even enough for my bosses.

My point basically regarding this is, surely if there is no real alternative, then what could i have possibly offered to do within the company, if no other positions are even available ? Do i have any leverage with this in respect of an appeal ?

So back to my dismissal letter, and my "position is no longer required in the current climate" bit. Perhaps unwisely, i replied to my boss who sent the letter disputing this straight away saying how could be my role not be required when it is still actually being done albeit by outsourced £3 an hour staff abroad..he replied a few days later saying that some changes to our software had eliminated the need for my job entirely (going against what the hr guy said).  But the job is still being done by the outsourced guys yet he avoids that as a reason in any way whatsoever, and is sticking to the line that my job is gone completely.  He then goes on to say that the decision is based simply on finances as the company no longer has the funds available to pay employees to work when there's no work for them to carry out anymore.

Sorry if this is confusing to read, but i can't help but think that as my job is still being done abroad, surely the statement that my position is no longer required is wrong.  Then when he replies to my email,he cites system changes and also "simply finances" as reasons - don't they have to say that when they are giving reasons for me getting binned ?

I have no wish to work for them anymore, so that isn't my endgame here, but i can't help but think that all the different reasons, and the process i've been thru doesn't seem as it should be.
Thanks for anyone patient enough to read this - apologies for the rambling nature.
Any advice appreciated.
(and if anyone can recommend any templates to use for an appeal, that would be lovely)

Offering to work "at a vastly reduced rate" doesn't sound like someone who doesn't "wish to work for them anymore".  If you don't want to work there, don't waste your time in challenging their decision but spend it in securing a replacement job.  You may want to prove a point or make them spend more money in dealing with the situation but it is better to be thinking about your own future employment.

elsien

Given that making you redundant because they are outsourcing abroad isn't open to challenge, before you fire off any more emails to your boss you may want to consider the impact of this on any future references. 
If you have to go, make sure it is on good terms, from their perspective at least. 

[Deleted User]

elsien said:

Given that making you redundant because they are outsourcing abroad isn't open to challenge, before you fire off any more emails to your boss you may want to consider the impact of this on any future references. 
If you have to go, make sure it is on good terms, from their perspective at least. 

That's my point tho, my dismissal letter says my role no longer exists, not that it's being taken abroad.  Surely the reason given in my letter has to be factual no ?

lincroft1710

Your role no longer exists at your workplace. The letter is factual, just not giving every detail