Garage disaster - who is liable?

Oursoul

Hi all, don't know if anyone can help with this but would be interested to hear any thoughts - my partner and i are both fairly clueless when it comes to cars...

We took our car for it's MOT yesterday at a local garage, and the prognosis wasn't great - needed some welding underneath and a new unit that controls the airbags.  We agreed to this, so the garage sent the car off to be welded today.

Earlier we were called by the garage saying that during welding our car caught fire and was destroyed!  Apparently, the carpet caught fire while they were underneath and the lot went up, including the child seats and my collection of naff CDs.

The garage gave my partner the number for the welder, who said he could claim on insurance but has a £700 excess, or he's got a couple of cars we could choose from and have as a replacement.   Both cars are about the same age as our dead one (but with lower mileage), one is a VW Polo but is an automatic which neither of us particularly wants to drive, and the other is a Panda which is a bit beaten up.

Our car was a 2004 honda jazz, and while it did need some work doing, had that work been carried out it would've cost us a bit but would've certainly lasted us at least another year - mechanically it was pretty sound and never caused any trouble apart from usual wear and tear, replacing parts when needed - the usual stuff for a car that age.

Anyway, our insurance won't cover it as it was under the care of the welder at the time, and if the welder claims he's got his £700 excess to pay on what could potentially only be a couple of hundred quid that his insurance might value it at (we buy any car valued it at £50 which seems a bit mean - and that's if it was in working order!)

We do feel for the welder, he said he's had a bad week and this was the icing on the cake, but also we're now a bit screwed and are kind of being forced into being given a car we probably wouldn't have chosen had we been looking to buy one, as this is the best option that's been presented.  I'm guessing the work we agreed to have done would've cost in the region of £500-£700 (though this isn't based on anything other than previous experience of welding work being done on other cars, no idea about the airbag controller though), but don't know if that price would buy us a similar working car?

Should the garage not have some kind of liability in this, as they sent it to the welder?  We really don't know what to do, and need a car to get to work so need a solution quickly.

I'd be interested if anyone else has had a similar experience, it's the first time i've ever heard of it happening!

MinuteNoodles

You shouldn't feel for the welder. Had the welder been doing the job properly the car would never have set on fire because if he was doing it properly he would have removed the carpet and soundproofing from the area directly above and adjacent to where he was welding and he'd have water/fire extinguisher at hand to put out anything that did set on fire such as paint or underseal. The car set on fire and was burned out because he failed to take the basic precautions you're taught in your first year at college as a trainee mechanic.

You are owed the market value of the car. Him having a £700 insurance excess isn't your problem, it's his. You do not have to accept the sheds he's offering.

Oursoul

But is the market value of the car (mot failure, faulty airbag controller, needs welding) worth more than a shed?  If we claimed the value we probably wouldn't get much, but if we take a car at least we've got a drivable car.

Oursoul

...and yes our mechanic mate said you're supposed to have someone inside the car in fireproof clothing ready with a fire extinguisher in case a spark gets in.  Doesn't sound like that was the case here.

frayedknot

The welder was acting as subcontractor for the garage, it was the garage who employed this pyromaniac and it is the garage that is liable.

Whether or not the garage can claim from the welder is not your concern.

cymruchris

I'm not the legal expert - but have a good old fashioned internet opinion - that being if I leave my car with person A - person A is responsible for it. If person A then passes it to person B - then person A is still responsible for it even though person B has it. Should something go wrong, person A would chase person B to resolve the situation, and then pass the relevant outcome back to me. If person A decided to wash their hands with it, then it would be person A I would pursue through the courts. (In other words- your garage).

You've stated your car insurance won't cover it - do you have any kind of legal cover to give advice on situations like this?

I agree that the car probably has an overall relatively low value - but you knew the car - what was wrong with it - what you'd maintained and changed - if you took one of these donor cars - you'd have no idea how they'd been looked after. You might have it a week and the engine falls out. (extreme example).

You can't turn back the clock - your car is never coming back - so either you have to go out and buy another one (as you said you need it quickly) -or get your garage to compensate you, and then they can in their own time chase the welder for recompense. (It may be that the garage gets 50 man hours of welding for nothing (as an example) in exchange for them compensating you now - (there's always a deal to be done).

Goudy

It's unfortunate but the welder appears to be pretty negligent, as already mentioned they should have taken more care preparing the area before starting any hot works and had measures in place to control any fire if those preparations failed.

In regards to who is responsible, it is ultimately the welder.
The original garage farmed the work out on your behalf and the way you write about this, it sounds like you agreed to this. So at best they recommended this welder to you and I'm sure this is were they'll stand if any legal proceedings take place.

If you can't come to an agreement with the welder over a replacement/compensation you're going to have to go direct to their liability insurers and make a claim, you might end up going through the small claims court if they dig their heels in, but before that you should consider reporting this incident to HSE as their suspected negligence has caused a dangerous occurrence involving an explosion or fire.
HSE take these instances very seriously as will the welders liability insurance, it already appears they operate at the top end of what they can afford to start with. The mention of this might be enough to aid you in negotiations.

You sound like a fairly reasonable person and aren't likely to make unreasonable demands on the welder, so keep it all civil between you. Explain clearly what your expectations are (suitable replacement car or the cash equivalent) and that you are prepared to work with him to achieve this if it helps all parties.
If not, you know the road to go down. 

AdrianC

Whether the garage or the welder is ultimately responsible is not really your problem. You contracted the garage, who subcontracted the job, and were going to give you one single bill. Therefore your contract is with the garage.

They owe you the value of what you delivered to them... an MOT-fail rusty 2004 Jazz with the airbag light on - plus the value of the contents (some charity-shop CDs plus a couple of used child seats).
They can pay that in cash, or they can provide an equivalent-value used car - your choice.
If you cannot come to a mutually acceptable agreement, then small claim.

princeofpounds

Agree with AdrianC. Goudy is probably (but not necessarily) wrong - what matters in the law is not ultimate responsibility, but responsibility to you.

It would be very unusual if your contract was not with with garage. You would have had to agree a whole new contract separately with the welder for him to be liable to you. I bet that didn't happen (please correct us if it did). Simple agreement to have the car welded is not a contract.

The garage should not have been palming you off onto the welder in that case. They should claim from him. It's really not your problem.

You are due the cost of replacement - obviously not old for new. And yes, a letter before action and then small claims is the next step if you can't settle. If there is a real uncertainty about liability you can name both garage and welder as defendants. But that's probably not going to be necessary.

Ditzy_Mitzy

I must say that I've enjoyed the spirit of good humour you've taken this in. 
There's a low mileage 2004 Honda Jazz, with no MOT and a broken exhaust pipe, up on eBay for £350 (classified ad.) 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2004-Honda-Jazz-1-4i-DSI-SE-Manual-No-MOT-PX-Welcome/274357028756?hash=item3fe0f40794:g:ZnEAAOSw7dResAYa
It looks rough as hell inside but would, if the claims made by the seller are to be believed, take less work to put it back on the road than yours would have done.  On that basis, I'd assume your car, prior to its immolation, was worth £100 to £200 - given that it's an MOT failure, rusty and in need of an expensive bit. 
To look at this in purely mercenary fashion: your best option is to take the automatic VW Polo, run it for a little while and then sell it privately or PX it against a car you actually like, using the £700 the Jazz repairs would have cost to increase the pot available for a better car.  This is the only way to 'win' in the present situation.  An automatic Polo of similar vintage to the Jazz, which is a going concern, is worth £1,000 odd at the very least.  See here:https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_dcat=9873&_fsrp=1&_nkw=vw+polo+automatic&_sacat=0&_from=R40&rt=nc&Model%2520Year=2004%7C2005%7C2003%7C2002%7C2001%7C2006
I've made several assumptions about the Polo, but if it's 2004 or similar reg., has an MOT and isn't a total heap then it's a reasonable proposition. It's inconvenient for you, getting a car you don't want, but you could end up in a better financial position that you were in prior to the conflagration. 
Small claims etc., already suggested, would be silly in this case.  You can't claim for more than the Honda Jazz was worth prior to the work being done, thus could end up with nothing more than a few hundred quid.  Also, the adversarial route will inevitably take its toll on your wellbeing.  

Goudy

AdrianC said:

Whether the garage or the welder is ultimately responsible is not really your problem. You contracted the garage, who subcontracted the job, and were going to give you one single bill. Therefore your contract is with the garage.

This is the point I was making.
There will be no bill from anyone, the OP will likely never see one either and I bet any quote for the work will have been verbal.

The original garage will just say they recommended the welder that's all, they certainly won't want to involve themselves with this. They will say car needed several jobs, welding was one they couldn't do themselves so they suggested they use the welder and the OP was to pay the welder.

Whether this is true on not is another thing. Take it to small claims court and it might even seem probably they did actually sub contract it out without evidence, but the fact is the welder burnt out the car and that's not in dispute.
The welder hasn't a leg to stand on, there's no defence if they did the work for the OP or the original garage, the OP's car went up in flames due to the welder. Why risk a claim on probability when there's a case that's indisputable? 

Sure things would be different if there was a bill or written quote from the original garage for all the work, no matter who did it, it would then be clear that the original garage sub contracted out the work and would be liable as the contract was between them and the welder and the OP's was between himself and the original garage.