Employment gaps shouldn't matter should they?

AW618

Planet_Switzerland said:

theoretica said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

theoretica said:

Planet_Switzerland

The answer is I don't know. Yes I am assuming it because I'm not getting offered a job.

Offering a possible thought here - you will know if it feels like it fits you.  When recruiting the company will be looking for a number of different criteria and score candidates against them (either formally, or informally). One or more specific technical abilities, management experience, communication, fitting straight into the company structure... that sort of thing - probably mostly what they ask for in the job advert.  They then need to choose between candidates who are decent at all of these (say they were scored at BBBB on 4 criteria) and candidates who were better at some things than others ( say ABBC).  If in the interview the ABBC candidate persuades them the C doesn't matter and can rapidly be improved then the B candidate gets told it went to someone better at criterion 1.  If candidate ABBC doesn't persuade them the C doesn't really matter (or BBBB candidate pulls some As out of their hat - it isn't just how well one candidate does) then ABBC is told that the job went to someone better in criterion 4.  Yes the interviewers knew this was weaker when they made the interview invitation, but they felt the candidate was worth a chance because of other strengths.

Well the company structure is probably a place where I fall down. I don't want to work for a company with a similar structure to ours, if one even exists, because that's half the problem. How do I persuade someone that I can adapt to what seems like a better structure without slagging my company off?

I would say you need to find a time to address this head on - don't not mention it as though you hope they won't have noticed, because they will have and you can't lower their concerns if you don't at least briefly mention it. But you also don't want to say so much about it that it seems to be a big problem for you.  It's not slagging off your current employer to praise something about the company you are applying to.  Also I think 'structure' will be a shorthand for concern about things which your current job hasn't had you doing, but the new one would.  So you do want to think about your examples that show you can do those things and make sure you include them in the interview. 

So if you were a mechanic and all the cars you fixed went straight to the scrapyard, how would you show you're capable of getting a car back on the road?

I know it sounds silly, but that's what my job is the equivalent of and I really don't want to say what I do as it's a specialised job which puts me in danger of being identified.

I'd say I fixed the cars.  If they were scrapped after I had fixed them, that is none of my concern.  I fixed them and they were roadworthy.  At that point, stop telling the story.

AW618

theoretica said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

theoretica said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

theoretica said:

Planet_Switzerland

The answer is I don't know. Yes I am assuming it because I'm not getting offered a job.

Offering a possible thought here - you will know if it feels like it fits you.  When recruiting the company will be looking for a number of different criteria and score candidates against them (either formally, or informally). One or more specific technical abilities, management experience, communication, fitting straight into the company structure... that sort of thing - probably mostly what they ask for in the job advert.  They then need to choose between candidates who are decent at all of these (say they were scored at BBBB on 4 criteria) and candidates who were better at some things than others ( say ABBC).  If in the interview the ABBC candidate persuades them the C doesn't matter and can rapidly be improved then the B candidate gets told it went to someone better at criterion 1.  If candidate ABBC doesn't persuade them the C doesn't really matter (or BBBB candidate pulls some As out of their hat - it isn't just how well one candidate does) then ABBC is told that the job went to someone better in criterion 4.  Yes the interviewers knew this was weaker when they made the interview invitation, but they felt the candidate was worth a chance because of other strengths.

Well the company structure is probably a place where I fall down. I don't want to work for a company with a similar structure to ours, if one even exists, because that's half the problem. How do I persuade someone that I can adapt to what seems like a better structure without slagging my company off?

I would say you need to find a time to address this head on - don't not mention it as though you hope they won't have noticed, because they will have and you can't lower their concerns if you don't at least briefly mention it. But you also don't want to say so much about it that it seems to be a big problem for you.  It's not slagging off your current employer to praise something about the company you are applying to.  Also I think 'structure' will be a shorthand for concern about things which your current job hasn't had you doing, but the new one would.  So you do want to think about your examples that show you can do those things and make sure you include them in the interview. 

So if you were a mechanic and all the cars you fixed went straight to the scrapyard, how would you show you're capable of getting a car back on the road?

I know it sounds silly, but that's what my job is the equivalent of and I really don't want to say what I do as it's a specialised job which puts me in danger of being identified.

In my current work I make cars look good before they are crushed for film cameras, there are a few techniques and materials I use which would not be appropriate for cosmetic work on a road worthy car as they won't hold up in the long term, but most of the time I am using common industry techniques such as X and Y and the cars I work on are subject to great scrutiny for close up shots... 

Is there enough demand for this that it is your full time job?

k12479

Planet_Switzerland said:

So if you were a mechanic and all the cars you fixed went straight to the scrapyard, how would you show you're capable of getting a car back on the road?

I know it sounds silly, but that's what my job is the equivalent of and I really don't want to say what I do as it's a specialised job which puts me in danger of being identified.

A lot of people work on projects that sometimes get cancelled. If it happens too often it can get demoralising.

I assume literally not every single thing you work on ends up going nowhere. Use the examples that were successful. Things that didn't materialise are still useful for how they were done, the challenges, what was new, managing the team/work, etc. and for awareness of the bigger factors that caused the cancellation (economics/legislation/market/etc. changed).

For jobs carried out for something that literally never happens, e.g. maintaining nuclear weapons, there are metrics like efficiency, availability, new processes, reduced costs, etc. that still demonstrate success and ability.

AW618

Planet_Switzerland said:

AW618 said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

theoretica said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

theoretica said:

Planet_Switzerland

The answer is I don't know. Yes I am assuming it because I'm not getting offered a job.

Offering a possible thought here - you will know if it feels like it fits you.  When recruiting the company will be looking for a number of different criteria and score candidates against them (either formally, or informally). One or more specific technical abilities, management experience, communication, fitting straight into the company structure... that sort of thing - probably mostly what they ask for in the job advert.  They then need to choose between candidates who are decent at all of these (say they were scored at BBBB on 4 criteria) and candidates who were better at some things than others ( say ABBC).  If in the interview the ABBC candidate persuades them the C doesn't matter and can rapidly be improved then the B candidate gets told it went to someone better at criterion 1.  If candidate ABBC doesn't persuade them the C doesn't really matter (or BBBB candidate pulls some As out of their hat - it isn't just how well one candidate does) then ABBC is told that the job went to someone better in criterion 4.  Yes the interviewers knew this was weaker when they made the interview invitation, but they felt the candidate was worth a chance because of other strengths.

Well the company structure is probably a place where I fall down. I don't want to work for a company with a similar structure to ours, if one even exists, because that's half the problem. How do I persuade someone that I can adapt to what seems like a better structure without slagging my company off?

I would say you need to find a time to address this head on - don't not mention it as though you hope they won't have noticed, because they will have and you can't lower their concerns if you don't at least briefly mention it. But you also don't want to say so much about it that it seems to be a big problem for you.  It's not slagging off your current employer to praise something about the company you are applying to.  Also I think 'structure' will be a shorthand for concern about things which your current job hasn't had you doing, but the new one would.  So you do want to think about your examples that show you can do those things and make sure you include them in the interview. 

So if you were a mechanic and all the cars you fixed went straight to the scrapyard, how would you show you're capable of getting a car back on the road?

I know it sounds silly, but that's what my job is the equivalent of and I really don't want to say what I do as it's a specialised job which puts me in danger of being identified.

I'd say I fixed the cars.  If they were scrapped after I had fixed them, that is none of my concern.  I fixed them and they were roadworthy.  At that point, stop telling the story.

What if they asked what happened to the cars after your fixed them?

Why would they ask that?  You fixed them and returned them to the person who asked you to fix them.  No mechanic knows or cares what happens to cars as long as they don't come back to him with the same problem. And why does it matter if they were scrapped, tell them they were scrapped, but they were in fully working order.  There's presumably some reason they were scrapped, unless your company are just lunatics, in which case they wouldn't still be in business.  The interviewers aren't going to care that they were scrapped, why do you thinik they would?

AW618

Planet_Switzerland said:

AW618 said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

AW618 said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

AW618 said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

AW618 said:

I am not interested in any of that, sorry.  You said you are bad at interviews.  How do you  think this manifests itself?  If the answer is "I don't know", then say so.  Are you just assuming it because you are not getting offered a job?
Why are you harping on about the shortcomings of your current company? They are not the ones interviewing you.  I presume you have the sense not to do this at interviews; but you present your current job in a positive light.  If your point is that your current company doesn't let you exercise the skills required for the jobs you are applying for, then you are applying for the wrong jobs.  To be honest that's what it looks like to me, rather than you being bad at interviews, so if you think you are bad at interviews, say why.

The answer is I don't know. Yes I am assuming it because I'm not getting offered a job.

I'm harping on about the shortcomings of my current company because yes my talent is being wasted. I do present my current job in a positive light which is a challenge in itself.

If I'm applying for the wrong jobs then what are the right jobs?

How would I know?  It might help if you answer the question I asked - is it the case that you feel your company is not allowing you to get useful experience in the jobs you are applying for?

Yes, that's something I've felt since day one. 

It's been the equivalent of fixing someones car, but then the customer decides they don't want the car back. I've tried filling in the gaps in my experience over the years the best I can, but then more gaps start appearing. Its like there's some sort of secret knowledge that I need to know, but I don't know what it is.

Does that answer your question?

Yes.  Then I would suggest you start applying for jobs which you are experienced and qualified for.  There is no point going for things that you feel you should have been getting experience for and then telling them at the interview that no, you haven't done any of that.

Where would I find these jobs? 

It would be like a mechanic looking for a job where all the cars you fix go straight to the scrapyard. Nobody would have such a job because it's pointless.

If I look at the person specification on the last job I applied for, I match each criteria on paper. 

Again, how the bloody hell would I know?  You won't say what you do, and you say it is a specialised field, so I wouldn't know even if you did.
But if, as you seem to be saying, you have a job title of "ferret wrangler" but you are not wrangling any ferrets and are saying so at interview, then it's hardly surprising you are not getting ferret wrangling jobs.  Whatever you are doing, apply for jobs doing that.

OK a real example. Years ago at a previous company, there was a 50 something man who'd been there 20 years. His job was to create something specific for our in-house software. We were the only company that had such a thing, I doubt any other jobs doing the same thing existed. 

Maybe he was happy doing that, but to me it was a waste of a career. Yet I find myself in the same trap because I've never seen a job description that matches my job in reality. I've had interviews at all our competitors which is as similar as you're going to get, but not similar enough it seems.

You seem hung up on what it is you do, rather than how you do it.  Whatever the software was for, it was presumably a transferable skill that he used to create it.  Of course if he was using 20 year old skills they wouldn't be much sought after elsewhere (although in some cases he could make an absolute killing contracting).  Is this your problem?  Are you a software developer with outdated skills?  This is very much a solvable problem

theoretica

So, I think you have some thinking and research it might be worth doing:

To change your presentation and conception of yourself away from the minutiae of your current job. From 'I'm a widget maker' to 'I'm a craftsman who makes whatever's wanted, happens to have been widgets in my last job'

To think about the best aspect to talk about your projects - their most successful moments 'When that car left my hands ...' 

To go through the job description for your current job and find positive examples to give to match it, even the ones you would have given when applying for your current job.

To research the reality of jobs you are applying for - I think many jobs have a slightly glamorous presentation of highlights, like the instagram version of life, but don't necessarily want employees who have bought into this vision and aren't prepared for all the databases involved or whatever.

AW618

Planet_Switzerland said:

AW618 said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

AW618 said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

theoretica said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

theoretica said:

Planet_Switzerland

The answer is I don't know. Yes I am assuming it because I'm not getting offered a job.

Offering a possible thought here - you will know if it feels like it fits you.  When recruiting the company will be looking for a number of different criteria and score candidates against them (either formally, or informally). One or more specific technical abilities, management experience, communication, fitting straight into the company structure... that sort of thing - probably mostly what they ask for in the job advert.  They then need to choose between candidates who are decent at all of these (say they were scored at BBBB on 4 criteria) and candidates who were better at some things than others ( say ABBC).  If in the interview the ABBC candidate persuades them the C doesn't matter and can rapidly be improved then the B candidate gets told it went to someone better at criterion 1.  If candidate ABBC doesn't persuade them the C doesn't really matter (or BBBB candidate pulls some As out of their hat - it isn't just how well one candidate does) then ABBC is told that the job went to someone better in criterion 4.  Yes the interviewers knew this was weaker when they made the interview invitation, but they felt the candidate was worth a chance because of other strengths.

Well the company structure is probably a place where I fall down. I don't want to work for a company with a similar structure to ours, if one even exists, because that's half the problem. How do I persuade someone that I can adapt to what seems like a better structure without slagging my company off?

I would say you need to find a time to address this head on - don't not mention it as though you hope they won't have noticed, because they will have and you can't lower their concerns if you don't at least briefly mention it. But you also don't want to say so much about it that it seems to be a big problem for you.  It's not slagging off your current employer to praise something about the company you are applying to.  Also I think 'structure' will be a shorthand for concern about things which your current job hasn't had you doing, but the new one would.  So you do want to think about your examples that show you can do those things and make sure you include them in the interview. 

So if you were a mechanic and all the cars you fixed went straight to the scrapyard, how would you show you're capable of getting a car back on the road?

I know it sounds silly, but that's what my job is the equivalent of and I really don't want to say what I do as it's a specialised job which puts me in danger of being identified.

I'd say I fixed the cars.  If they were scrapped after I had fixed them, that is none of my concern.  I fixed them and they were roadworthy.  At that point, stop telling the story.

What if they asked what happened to the cars after your fixed them?

Why would they ask that?  You fixed them and returned them to the person who asked you to fix them.  No mechanic knows or cares what happens to cars as long as they don't come back to him with the same problem. And why does it matter if they were scrapped, tell them they were scrapped, but they were in fully working order.  There's presumably some reason they were scrapped, unless your company are just lunatics, in which case they wouldn't still be in business.  The interviewers aren't going to care that they were scrapped, why do you thinik they would?

My company are just lunatics and it's only a matter of time before they go out of business. At a recent interview I talked about a project I started some point in 2018 and the plug got pulled at the start of this year. I didn't mention the latter, but they did ask what the outcome of the project was and I said it was still a work in progress, so they asked to to talk about a project that did have an outcome.

They have been in business for years by your account.  You might want to consider that they do have some idea what they are doing.

Planet_Switzerland said:

AW618 said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

AW618 said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

AW618 said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

AW618 said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

AW618 said:

I am not interested in any of that, sorry.  You said you are bad at interviews.  How do you  think this manifests itself?  If the answer is "I don't know", then say so.  Are you just assuming it because you are not getting offered a job?
Why are you harping on about the shortcomings of your current company? They are not the ones interviewing you.  I presume you have the sense not to do this at interviews; but you present your current job in a positive light.  If your point is that your current company doesn't let you exercise the skills required for the jobs you are applying for, then you are applying for the wrong jobs.  To be honest that's what it looks like to me, rather than you being bad at interviews, so if you think you are bad at interviews, say why.

The answer is I don't know. Yes I am assuming it because I'm not getting offered a job.

I'm harping on about the shortcomings of my current company because yes my talent is being wasted. I do present my current job in a positive light which is a challenge in itself.

If I'm applying for the wrong jobs then what are the right jobs?

How would I know?  It might help if you answer the question I asked - is it the case that you feel your company is not allowing you to get useful experience in the jobs you are applying for?

Yes, that's something I've felt since day one. 

It's been the equivalent of fixing someones car, but then the customer decides they don't want the car back. I've tried filling in the gaps in my experience over the years the best I can, but then more gaps start appearing. Its like there's some sort of secret knowledge that I need to know, but I don't know what it is.

Does that answer your question?

Yes.  Then I would suggest you start applying for jobs which you are experienced and qualified for.  There is no point going for things that you feel you should have been getting experience for and then telling them at the interview that no, you haven't done any of that.

Where would I find these jobs? 

It would be like a mechanic looking for a job where all the cars you fix go straight to the scrapyard. Nobody would have such a job because it's pointless.

If I look at the person specification on the last job I applied for, I match each criteria on paper. 

Again, how the bloody hell would I know?  You won't say what you do, and you say it is a specialised field, so I wouldn't know even if you did.
But if, as you seem to be saying, you have a job title of "ferret wrangler" but you are not wrangling any ferrets and are saying so at interview, then it's hardly surprising you are not getting ferret wrangling jobs.  Whatever you are doing, apply for jobs doing that.

OK a real example. Years ago at a previous company, there was a 50 something man who'd been there 20 years. His job was to create something specific for our in-house software. We were the only company that had such a thing, I doubt any other jobs doing the same thing existed. 

Maybe he was happy doing that, but to me it was a waste of a career. Yet I find myself in the same trap because I've never seen a job description that matches my job in reality. I've had interviews at all our competitors which is as similar as you're going to get, but not similar enough it seems.

You seem hung up on what it is you do, rather than how you do it.  Whatever the software was for, it was presumably a transferable skill that he used to create it.  Of course if he was using 20 year old skills they wouldn't be much sought after elsewhere (although in some cases he could make an absolute killing contracting).  Is this your problem?  Are you a software developer with outdated skills?  This is very much a solvable problem

No I'm not a software developer. It is true to say I can use transferable skills to do other things within my field, but that's what I'm not being given the chance to do. I'm not saying I'm good at everything, but it's true to say there are some things that I've had no prior knowledge of that I've got very good at very quickly because I can use my transferable skills to do it. The question is how do I convince the interviewer that?

You tell them. There has to be some outcome.  There are milestones.  But unless you sat there for two years doing nothing, you managed to achieve something. Nobody can give you specifics as you keep on clouding everything with bad analogies, and anyway, working out the best way to present what you have done is your problem.  You have been given as good advice as you could hope for under the circumstances and all you seem to want to do is complain about how it doesn't apply  to you, and how nobody is giving you specific answers, despite you not giving them any specific information. 
If you honestly think your company is not giving you opportunities then you are not experienced enough for the jobs you are applying for.  That isn't their fault. You didn't have such things in previous job either, or you would be using them as examples.   If the job you have is not to your liking stop taking their money and apply for something else somewhere else that you are experienced enough to get.  You might well have to accept lower salary and a position lower on the ladder.  It actually sounds to me like your current company are valuing you above the market rate; you need to recognise that.

AW618

Planet_Switzerland said:

theoretica said:

So, I think you have some thinking and research it might be worth doing:

To change your presentation and conception of yourself away from the minutiae of your current job. From 'I'm a widget maker' to 'I'm a craftsman who makes whatever's wanted, happens to have been widgets in my last job'

To think about the best aspect to talk about your projects - their most successful moments 'When that car left my hands ...' 

To go through the job description for your current job and find positive examples to give to match it, even the ones you would have given when applying for your current job.

To research the reality of jobs you are applying for - I think many jobs have a slightly glamorous presentation of highlights, like the instagram version of life, but don't necessarily want employees who have bought into this vision and aren't prepared for all the databases involved or whatever.

How would I research the reality of the jobs? I know there's Glassdoor, but that doesn't really go into the specifics of the job, more unhappy employees having a rant and HR making it sound better than it really is to boost the score.

How the hell would he or she know where to research jobs in your field, when you won't even say what it is?  Do you have no ability to do anything for yourself?  You come across as one of the least self-reliant and pro-active people I have ever encountered, and if this shows up at interview, you are never going to get any sort of a job.

theoretica

AW618 said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

theoretica said:

So, I think you have some thinking and research it might be worth doing:

To change your presentation and conception of yourself away from the minutiae of your current job. From 'I'm a widget maker' to 'I'm a craftsman who makes whatever's wanted, happens to have been widgets in my last job'

To think about the best aspect to talk about your projects - their most successful moments 'When that car left my hands ...' 

To go through the job description for your current job and find positive examples to give to match it, even the ones you would have given when applying for your current job.

To research the reality of jobs you are applying for - I think many jobs have a slightly glamorous presentation of highlights, like the instagram version of life, but don't necessarily want employees who have bought into this vision and aren't prepared for all the databases involved or whatever.

How would I research the reality of the jobs? I know there's Glassdoor, but that doesn't really go into the specifics of the job, more unhappy employees having a rant and HR making it sound better than it really is to boost the score.

How the hell would he or she know where to research jobs in your field, when you won't even say what it is?  Do you have no ability to do anything for yourself?  You come across as one of the least self-reliant and pro-active people I have ever encountered, and if this shows up at interview, you are never going to get any sort of a job.

The specifics, of course not.  The general - you talk to people. You join the groups for your profession even if it feels like work leaking into your home time, you talk to colleagues who came from other companies and keep in touch with people who leave.  

AW618

theoretica said:

AW618 said:

Planet_Switzerland said:

theoretica said:

So, I think you have some thinking and research it might be worth doing:

To change your presentation and conception of yourself away from the minutiae of your current job. From 'I'm a widget maker' to 'I'm a craftsman who makes whatever's wanted, happens to have been widgets in my last job'

To think about the best aspect to talk about your projects - their most successful moments 'When that car left my hands ...' 

To go through the job description for your current job and find positive examples to give to match it, even the ones you would have given when applying for your current job.

To research the reality of jobs you are applying for - I think many jobs have a slightly glamorous presentation of highlights, like the instagram version of life, but don't necessarily want employees who have bought into this vision and aren't prepared for all the databases involved or whatever.

How would I research the reality of the jobs? I know there's Glassdoor, but that doesn't really go into the specifics of the job, more unhappy employees having a rant and HR making it sound better than it really is to boost the score.

How the hell would he or she know where to research jobs in your field, when you won't even say what it is?  Do you have no ability to do anything for yourself?  You come across as one of the least self-reliant and pro-active people I have ever encountered, and if this shows up at interview, you are never going to get any sort of a job.

The specifics, of course not.  The general - you talk to people. You join the groups for your profession even if it feels like work leaking into your home time, you talk to colleagues who came from other companies and keep in touch with people who leave.  

He will want to know what groups and what companies and whether you can give him some phone numbers.