Leasehold apartment leak

jonesl7

Hi,
We own the leasehold on a first floor apartment above a retail unit, there are 3 apartments above us and they each have a balcony. Over two years ago, we reported to the property management company that whenever it rained heavy for a sustained period of time water would trickle over the above balcony and onto ours, killing our plants, etc. The management company promptly told us the balcony is our issue and they are going to do nothing about it. Fast forward two years and now the retail unit below us has had a leak in the ceiling; we received a letter from the management company telling us we had to get a contractor to come and fix the leak as it is below our balcony.
In the month or so prior to this letter, we had a contractor visit, organised by the management company, who told us he has come over to check the communal drainage pipe - a pipe that runs from the roof down to each balcony, allowing water from each balcony to drain into it - was not blocked. The contractor told me that such a design is poor and is prone to causing an overflow if the communal pipe gets blocked. The contractor mentioned that the unit below had had 2 separate leaks recently (neither the unit's owner nor the management company have told us this, though), one from something I can't remember but the other one may be coming from our balcony; he said what it looks like is happening is the communal drainage pipe is getting blocked below us and the water is filling up and then exiting at the first point: the exit point for our balcony's drainage, he suggested it's then filling up under our balcony and then overflowing. He said to prevent the overflowing they could just increase the "edge" on our balcony but then the water would have nowhere to go and would flood at the opposite end: directly into our apartment! Again, he reiterated it's a bad design.
So, when the management company contacted us about the current leak and that we had to repair it, they suggested that the contractor from a month or so ago said a "higher" edge would fix the issue; I told them what the contractor said to me, that is, increasing the edge height will flood my apartment and that I will not be undertaking such a modification; furthermore, as it's a modification to the original design it's not a repair. The management company contacted me late Friday afternoon, leaving us with no chance for dialogue; they also didn't say where the leak is below us and were very vague ("under the balcony") so I don't know what I'd say to a contractor if I was able to get one out.

Tomorrow I intend to speak to whomever is in the retail unit and find out where the leak is; if I was in there shoes I'd just want it fixed and I'd like to aid them as best I can. Could anyone offer any advice on what to do next? Should I get another contractor out to verify the issue and then, if it is not our apartment, claim the cost back from the management company? If the issue is the communal drainage overflowing into our balcony: who is at fault? I would be very disheartened to hear that it would be us.

We feel the property management company have set us up by telling us late on a Friday afternoon knowing full well both the retail unit and their offices are shut all weekend (couple this with the fact they've been very vague about the location of the leak).

davidmcn

I don't see an insurance query here - this is probably more for the House Buying & Selling board.

Though if the problem is the communal drain blocking then it's really for the freeholders to sort out.

BernieW

You are assuming the leak is your responsibility and thus you need to do something about it. That is not necessarily the case - particularly if a communal pipe is involved.
Firstly - R T B L ... Read The Bloody Lease!  Find out from your lease where your flat stops and the rest of the building begins. In particular, read the definition of the "Demised Premises" to see if the balcony is part of your demise (I very much doubt it), or whether just the surface of the balcony is within your demise (possibly), or whether the balcony is outside your demise but you have a right to walk on it. If the structure of the balcony is not within your demise - tell the managing agents to RTBL and then to do their job properly.
Secondly - if the balcony is within your demise - you need to find out exactly where the problem is. It's highly unlikely to be caused by the balcony ... balconies do not produce water. Water will be emanating from somewhere else. You need to ascertain the source of the water. IF it's rain and IF the rain is collecting in a communal pipe - the problem is not your responsibility, as your lease will provide for "communal" maintenance to be completed by the freeholder/landlord, via their managing agents. Again, tell the managing agents to RTBL and do their job properly.
Thirdly - if in doubt or if you're uncertain about the legalities, seek assistance from someone who understands leases and leasehold management. 
I hope that helps. Bernie Wales

inspectorperez

BernieW said:

You are assuming the leak is your responsibility and thus you need to do something about it. That is not necessarily the case - particularly if a communal pipe is involved.
Firstly - R T B L ... Read The Bloody Lease!  Find out from your lease where your flat stops and the rest of the building begins. In particular, read the definition of the "Demised Premises" to see if the balcony is part of your demise (I very much doubt it), or whether just the surface of the balcony is within your demise (possibly), or whether the balcony is outside your demise but you have a right to walk on it. If the structure of the balcony is not within your demise - tell the managing agents to RTBL and then to do their job properly.
Secondly - if the balcony is within your demise - you need to find out exactly where the problem is. It's highly unlikely to be caused by the balcony ... balconies do not produce water. Water will be emanating from somewhere else. You need to ascertain the source of the water. IF it's rain and IF the rain is collecting in a communal pipe - the problem is not your responsibility, as your lease will provide for "communal" maintenance to be completed by the freeholder/landlord, via their managing agents. Again, tell the managing agents to RTBL and do their job properly.
Thirdly - if in doubt or if you're uncertain about the legalities, seek assistance from someone who understands leases and leasehold management. 
I hope that helps. Bernie Wales

That is one of the most erudite posts I have read for a while and should be pinned somewhere because of its relevance.

I am quite sure this is not an uncommon problem and is a potential worry for leaseholders where this type of issue materialises. It happened to me many years ago with a first floor apartment in a mixed (retail and private residence) development where water ingress started to occur very suddenly in the shop below. I was over 100 miles away at the time when I was "summoned" by the shop owner. Immediate thought was that a leak had somehow developed within the apartment and hastily cancelled meetings etc to hot foot it over to the property.

Turned out to be nothing to do with my property at all and was rainwater finding a way in to the shop via damaged flashing under the walkway outside our apartment (not part of our demised premises).

Shopkeeper very sheepish but no hard feelings as it is important to get on with people in these types of developments.

BernieW

inspectorperez said:

That is one of the most erudite posts I have read for a while and should be pinned somewhere because of its relevance.

Thank you inspectorperez. 
It is always important to find the real cause of any physical problem - and to get to the actual words written in the lease - no matter what is initially reported as being the problem or situation. Managing agents often don't know the correct legal position - and leaseholders rarely understand the legal gobbledegook written in their lease. Consequently, things are reported as people see them - and they're often "seeing" from a position of blissful ignorance.
Bernie Wales

jonesl7

BernieW said:

You are assuming the leak is your responsibility and thus you need to do something about it. That is not necessarily the case - particularly if a communal pipe is involved.
Firstly - R T B L ... Read The Bloody Lease!  Find out from your lease where your flat stops and the rest of the building begins. In particular, read the definition of the "Demised Premises" to see if the balcony is part of your demise (I very much doubt it), or whether just the surface of the balcony is within your demise (possibly), or whether the balcony is outside your demise but you have a right to walk on it. If the structure of the balcony is not within your demise - tell the managing agents to RTBL and then to do their job properly.
Secondly - if the balcony is within your demise - you need to find out exactly where the problem is. It's highly unlikely to be caused by the balcony ... balconies do not produce water. Water will be emanating from somewhere else. You need to ascertain the source of the water. IF it's rain and IF the rain is collecting in a communal pipe - the problem is not your responsibility, as your lease will provide for "communal" maintenance to be completed by the freeholder/landlord, via their managing agents. Again, tell the managing agents to RTBL and do their job properly.
Thirdly - if in doubt or if you're uncertain about the legalities, seek assistance from someone who understands leases and leasehold management. 
I hope that helps. Bernie Wales

Thanks, Bernie. I have read the lease just recently and I'm sure the balconies fall under the leaseholders management but I will have to double check that's for sure.

What is very interesting, however, is that I spoke to the leaseholder in the unit below and the leak isn't in their ceiling, it's coming through their door! There is no ceiling damage nor wall damage. The fact that the management company sees this as our issue is absolutely mind boggling to us.
In fact, the leaseholder below told us that the same issue happened about 5 years ago and he had to have the doors resealed, etc. Furthermore, while I was in the unit below I learned they have two lots of water damage: one on the floor/wall behind which the communal pipe runs and the other damage on the floor by the door. It seems to me as though the management company are not cleaning out the communal draining pipe (I haven't seen it done and I've lived here for 4 years), it has then backed up and water is flowing into the reservoir in our balcony (and also emanating from it's base into the units wall) and then exiting via the outlet to prevent it leaking into the apartment itself. I have, of course, told the management company this (after all, it's what their contractor said to me!); however, they seem to be doubling down on us getting a contractor out to re-route where the water flows off our balcony. I would not mind re-routing where the water overflows from our balcony if it helps the unit below; however, I don't think I should have to pay for such a modification. Furthermore, I believe from what I have seen and learnt from the leaseholder below and contractor, that the issue is the management company are not having the communal pipe cleaned (at all) and that re-routing the overflow water is a bandaid solution to fix their inept service.

I have a phone call with LEASE this week, hopefully they can offer some advice. I'm not sure if we have any grounds to take this further and if that'd be of any use anyway, from what I've learnt across the past few years it would seem the only real option is right to manage and then swap management company.