I might get fired for Gross Misconduct and I'm scared what will happen

ScottishGuy1122

Manxman_in_exile said:

Adam - you're still about. 

Just looking back I see that in various posts you've accepted that you might sometimes respond with "stupid language"; that you may have posted something "that perhaps could be deemed to be racist"; and also that you may have have called someone a "****ing dip****" and something about them taking responsibility as a black man.  (Apologies if not entirely accurate but that's the gist - and I've just worked out what "dip(poo)" means!).

Now I wouldn't dwell on those, but if you've said that about yourself on here, it might be well worth taking half an hour or so to think about what damage limitation you can do if your employer comes anywhere near those sort of issues.

Good luck.  Do your best.

EDIT:  Sometimes people think better on their feet than if they've prepared something - so don't work yourself up into a nervous state trying to learn a word perfect script.  However, in your case I would suggest trying not to react to quickly to questions and just saying the first thing that comes into your mind, but to try counting to three or something before opening your mouth.

Thanks, iv got a general idea what I'm going to say but don't want it to sound too scripted or start waffling.

Just a quick question, when I touch the subject about the comment and ask if they could explain specifically what was said in the comment as I had no intention to offend...what would I say if they go "the complainant has alleged you called them a (insert derogatory/racist remark). I'm not sure how to respond as I can't tell if that's just what the complainant has said in the email or if they have a screenshot and that is exactly what I have said.

How So no probe further to find out if it is the actual comment they see or just an allegation? As I don't want to come off as defensive and seem like I don't believe them.

IrishSean

OP's primary risk at the moment is OP😱

Absolutely do not ramble or put words in the employers mouth. Never mind not walking yourself to the gallows, do not give your employer the notion you are a loose canon by making a case against yourself! No mention of company disrepute, racism, moments of madness etc. 

Focus on your work record, the fact this can't happen again, the training you've completed, the fact ppl can take offence outside of your control.

I disagree with others who imply the complainant is in someway wholesome or justified in their complaint: in truth they are a vindictive troll seeking to ruin someone's life by seeking retribution through sacking because they were unhappy being sworn at online.

It's perfectly OK to say you are certain worse has been said online and in private by your co-workers: the difference here is the complainant has brought it to your company's attention as much to make trouble for them as for you. (It seems unlikely a large employer would entertain such mischief making as it would tie most up in administrative knots).

OP: Absolutely do NOT use the complainant as justification for another rant to your employer!
But questioning the motivations of the complainant may be entirely justified, given the online arguement (I can't believe i'm having to say this again) was originally nothing to do with the employer.

Again: your employer has a duty of care to you: they should be judging you based on your ability to do the job. Unless this is something that has a direct impact on the company (e.g. you work for Women's Aid and are reported (with evidence) of being abusive towards your spouse), then is it a company's responsibility to 'parent' staff?

I once applied for an office job to a chest, heart and stoke charity who said in the form staff who smoke or area caught smoking face dismissal: not illegal but perfectly reasonable.

ScottishGuy1122

IrishSean said:

OP's primary risk at the moment is OP😱

Absolutely do not ramble or put words in the employers mouth. Never mind not walking yourself to the gallows, do not give your employer the notion you are a loose canon by making a case against yourself! No mention of company disrepute, racism, moments of madness etc. 

Focus on your work record, the fact this can't happen again, the training you've completed, the fact ppl can take offence outside of your control.

I disagree with others who imply the complainant is in someway wholesome or justified in their complaint: in truth they are a vindictive troll seeking to ruin someone's life by seeking retribution through sacking because they were unhappy being sworn at online.

It's perfectly OK to say you are certain worse has been said online and in private by your co-workers: the difference here is the complainant has brought it to your company's attention as much to make trouble for them as for you. (It seems unlikely a large employer would entertain such mischief making as it would tie most up in administrative knots).

OP: Absolutely do NOT use the complainant as justification for another rant to your employer!
But questioning the motivations of the complainant may be entirely justified, given the online arguement (I can't believe i'm having to say this again) was originally nothing to do with the employer.

Again: your employer has a duty of care to you: they should be judging you based on your ability to do the job. Unless this is something that has a direct impact on the company (e.g. you work for Women's Aid and are reported (with evidence) of being abusive towards your spouse), then is it a company's responsibility to 'parent' staff?

I once applied for an office job to a chest, heart and stoke charity who said in the form staff who smoke or area caught smoking face dismissal: not illegal but perfectly reasonable.

Thanks, yeah, as this is just the investigation I'm not going to let emotions get involved, I will simply reply that I would never have intended to cause any offence with any comments made and these were removed as soon as I was made aware that someone had taken offence and apologise whoheartedly.

Keep if brief and don't give them ammo yet, as all they are basically doing is "did he say a comment, yes" "is this ground for continuing disciplinary, yes" etc

I know it's going to a disciplinary, it has to, as I said something, someone was offended and I was identified as working for X. Pretty clear cut, I'll save my growling, mitigation, out of character, mental health and all till the disciplinary.

IrishSean

Adamthom85 said:

IrishSean said:

OP's primary risk at the moment is OP😱

Absolutely do not ramble or put words in the employers mouth. Never mind not walking yourself to the gallows, do not give your employer the notion you are a loose canon by making a case against yourself! No mention of company disrepute, racism, moments of madness etc. 

Focus on your work record, the fact this can't happen again, the training you've completed, the fact ppl can take offence outside of your control.

I know it's going to a disciplinary, it has to, as I said something, someone was offended and I was identified as working for X. Pretty clear cut, I'll save my growling, mitigation, out of character, mental health and all till the disciplinary. *WTAF?!*

If you were my Union client i'd have head in hands at this point! You can't assume this an automatic disciplinary: if you do that with taint everything you say in this prelim meeting. 

Focus on the above in bold and that alone. As another poster said, don't over prepare, keep answers about the incident brief. It was a online argument in which you took offence and they took offence.
Employers aren't the 'taste police': they can only discipline you as an employee, not as a human being (unless your a politician, lol). 
It would be a nonsense for an employer to suggest your fitness for the role or future professionalism is called into question because of one screen-shotted argument, if they even have that. 
A Union rep would dismantle their 'case' in seconds. 
Brief answers, contrite if necessary; not grovelling.
Youre sorry the person took offence, your sorry YOU took offence, had you known such heated online discussions would inconvenience your employer to this extent you would never have used Facebook for debate. The complainant clearly takes issue with you, the person, not you the employee, etc. Etc. 

There's a lot of positive stuff you can say that doesn't involve talking yourself out the door, hehe

ScottishGuy1122

IrishSean said:

Adamthom85 said:

IrishSean said:

OP's primary risk at the moment is OP😱

Absolutely do not ramble or put words in the employers mouth. Never mind not walking yourself to the gallows, do not give your employer the notion you are a loose canon by making a case against yourself! No mention of company disrepute, racism, moments of madness etc. 

Focus on your work record, the fact this can't happen again, the training you've completed, the fact ppl can take offence outside of your control.

I know it's going to a disciplinary, it has to, as I said something, someone was offended and I was identified as working for X. Pretty clear cut, I'll save my growling, mitigation, out of character, mental health and all till the disciplinary. *WTAF?!*

If you were my Union client i'd have head in hands at this point! You can't assume this an automatic disciplinary: if you do that with taint everything you say in this prelim meeting. 

Focus on the above in bold and that alone. As another poster said, don't over prepare, keep answers about the incident brief. It was a online argument in which you took offence and they took offence.
Employers aren't the 'taste police': they can only discipline you as an employee, not as a human being (unless your a politician, lol). 
It would be a nonsense for an employer to suggest your fitness for the role or future professionalism is called into question because of one screen-shotted argument, if they even have that. 
A Union rep would dismantle their 'case' in seconds. 
Brief answers, contrite if necessary; not grovelling.
Youre sorry the person took offence, your sorry YOU took offence, had you known such heated online discussions would inconvenience your employer to this extent you would never have used Facebook for debate. The complainant clearly takes issue with you, the person, not you the employee, etc. Etc. 

There's a lot of positive stuff you can say that doesn't involve talking yourself out the door, hehe

I'm not in any union unfortunately. You are right, keep it simple and don't give too much away.

I will save it for the disciplinary IF one happens...30 mind to go

Manxman_in_exile

Unless you already know what the evidence is, you're going to have to tailor what you say against what they say.

If it ends up going to a disciplinary (and it doesn't have to) start thinking now about a union rep (if you're in one) or a work colleague you can bring along with you for support.

(I'm originally from the Isle of Man.  If you do a quick search you'll find there's a controversy there right now about something said on a 'phone in show by a radio host.  He's been suspended because of something he said - or perhaps didn't say - that was percevied as racist.  I've not heard it but basically he was questioning why "all lives matter" is not the same as "black lives matter", and he was also saying that as a middle aged white male that he had never enjoyed any more privilege than any young non-white person.  Now I don't believe he was being intentionally offensive or racist, but what he said was pretty stupid, crass and insensitive.  Many people over there see absolutely nothing wrong with what he said, whereas a lot of other people have him on equal footing with a grandmaster of the KKK or something.  The lesson has to be NEVER to commit anything that could be vaguely construed as controversial to social media.  It will come back to bite you.  There used to be a saying within families of never discussing religion and politics over the dinner table.  It was good advice and race ought to be added to the list.  Unfortunately, as families no longer eat together and as people can post quasi-anonymously on the internet, all sense of discretion has been lost.)

ScottishGuy1122

Sadly I'm not in a union. I will just apologise and explaining I meant no offence or for this to be potentially linked to my employer in any way. As soon as I was made aware that someone had taken offence I removed the post immediately.

If they don't actually have what I said, and it's just an allegation I've said something offensive I will downplay it to a stupid online argument which I shouldn't have engaged in.

If they have the comment or comments (as I made a few, but I don't think any of them were bad) il hold my hands up and just explain that I got involved in a heated debate and have said things which I now see could mean someone might take offence and I am deeply sorry as that was never my intention.

It's on in 15 mins, they said it will take about 30 mins, I'll give you guys a heads up on how screwed or not screwed I appear to be after

IrishSean

GL

Calm & succinct

IrishSean

Manxman that's great advice and an interesting case.
Discretion is so important; there's a temptation for not just employers but society to construe that disagreeing with part of an arguement automatically puts you in the camp of closet bigot.
Likewise there are people who jump at the chance to apply an -ism because someone disagrees with them: that's a nonsense too. My neighbours wife (now fantastic friends) called us racists because we complained their broken boiler was poisoning us with fumes coming into our kitchen from their flue! My DW's dad asked them firmly but politely to get it fixed asap.
How it was racist is beyond me; she seemed embarrassed about it for a long time after. I'm at a loss to see how the complaint would have impacted our jobs had she complained to either of our employeers.

Ownership of words is a strange one. People in the BAME community can use the N word in entertainment, banter, conversation as a form of empowerment, but the word can't be spoken in journalistic debate on say Newsnight, even by someone from the BAME community? That's a bit bizarre. 

My worry in all of it is it risks empowering those who have an insidious right wing agenda who say free speech is under attack. Imho they are the real threats to society who need no oxygen to peddle hate by the back door. 

Sry, OP, not the forum I know. 

ScottishGuy1122

Hi all

Just got off the investigatory meeting. The only comment which was a screen shot was the following "im all go, I just love pointing out hypocrisy, blacks (should have said black people but was challenging the previous poster who said blacks) make up 13% of population and 52% of the murderers, the rioters are spray painting "pigs" and you defend them?"

Whilst it's not the most eloquent way of putting it, it's not that bad. I told them the context of how I was just trying to put across the other side of the statistic as to why certain races may be killed by police at a higher rate if they have more interaction. I said this as I like debates, but hate when someone uses one sided stats, so I was adding counter balance. They basically said they can see I was having a debate and that I didn't intend anything and that I hit the nail on the head when I said comments online are emotionless and it's easy to interpret someone said in one context and take it as meaning something else.


They concluded and said they would pass the info to HR and thay HR would get back to me by end of next week but that they can't see any grounds for gross misconduct if I was worried about losing my job

So that sounds like a bit of good news.