Probate Hell! Help

Hornetmad

Thanks everyone for help

McKneff

For a start, all the money that was in your joint account with your mother is now yours. Your brother has no claim whatsoever on this.. this is the law. 

Bobziz

I would say that as a residuary beneficiary, he is entitled to see the estate accounts, which as you have not yet finished administration, are not yet complete. I can't see that he has a right to see the detailed bank statements of either yourself or your mother. What evidence does he have that you had a loan ? So, you could write back accordingly, or if you can easily account for all transactions in the statements, then it might be easier to let him have them. I assume you've recorded the debt that he owes the estate in the accounts ?

Hornetmad

Thanks for the replies. 

Regarding the claim I had a loan. The evidence he has is a voice recording from my mum on her death bed saying I owe money. He did approach me same day about this and I took him through to my poor mum and discussed it and she confirmed to him I owed nothing and any past loans were al repaid many years ago. I did a he did record the conversation to protect myself although I doubt it will ever stand up. But at the time I had no other option as my mum was becoming confused due to illness.

my bank also told me the money was mine if I chose to keep it he couldn’t claim any of it from me. But I have a pride in being honest and it was always my mums intention he got half of it and I won’t go against that. But I’m not prepared to give my own statements over. What was left from the money at time of death is the amount to be split.

the debt he owes to the estate his solicitor has requested it’s deducted from his entitlement when the estate has been finalised. Can I actually request this money now to the estate account?

thanks all for reading 

xylophone

now my mum as passed away the joint account has been changed to sole ownership in my name by the bank. I am fully aware he is entitled to his share of the money left in it.

By paying the money into an account in your sole name, let's say that your mother made you a very short term loan.

You and your mother then opened a joint account to which you transferred the sum in question.

You could say that you repaid the loan because although a joint account, she had access to all the money at any time.

This  was a joint account for which your mother provided all the funds ( and no doubt you declared as much on the IHT forms).  

When your mother died, the bank removed her name from the account. The money in the account became yours absolutely because assets owned as joint tenants do not pass by will.

Therefore legally, your brother does not have any right to the money in this account.

You feel however that morally, your mother would have wished him to have half of the original amount (less the gift made to him before she died).

You are at liberty to make this decision but legally, this would become a gift from you to him.

Rather than cause yourself hassle, it might be best to give the solicitor a full account of all transactions with supporting paper work so that you can show that all was above board.

Bobziz

So the evidence seems pretty flimsy on both sides. I'm surprised your brothers solicitor has recommended that he proceeds, unless there's something else that you're not aware of?

On repaying his debt, why would you want to poke the hornets nest by asking him to pay in advance of the estate being fully administered ? does the agreement stipulate payment terms and dates etc ?

This may help re what he can and can't see:
https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/a-121-8315?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true&bhcp=1

Hornetmad

Hi xylophone,

I can fully produce the statements to show the money entering my current account and being transferred to the joint account the problem is I believe my brother will question an spend from this money whilst in the joint account as to say it was for myself rather than my mum. I am unfortunately dealing with someone who the world is not enough. 

Things spent on we’re going out every day lunch and dinner my mum and friends. The money was withdrawn in cash and given to mum every day as before this was being done the brother took her debt card and spent 1800 unknown to anyone at the time and also emptied her purse. So I would ensure she had daily spend every day and I bought the shopping to restrict him from needing to have a bank card or access to any money. 

Also she has a credit card so that was paid in full before death to clear it from these funds. 

Am I right in thinking I can state the amount in their at the time of death to solicitor and no go into any further details about spend as its optional to enter this into the estate. And yes correct I did add this to the IHT 

thanks 

Hornetmad

Hi Bovziz,

I know he was going to cause issues as few weeks ago he demanded I change estate agents as the house wasn’t selling fast enough. Obviously no one could sell due to Covid but he didn’t see that just that it wasn’t sold. 

I haven’t received a loan from my mum and the statements would show this from her accounts. 

U did receive a payment from my mum few years back no where near the amount he thinks I was loan in payment for renovating a house she bought to house him in. It was for materials and a way of thank you tor doing it. Full renovation I’d point out and we actually lost on the house he moved in hit drugs and smashed it up so had to repair lots of things and sell it for a loss my mother did. 

So I can explain that with ease.

As someone said to me today at work my mum was very smart and organised. He had signed his loan documents along with her and myself. If I had a loan there would be the same for myself and he would have signed it to show I had it. 

Think the solicitor would just be phishing at a hope of some revelation admittance to a loan would be a success for his client. 

Keep_pedalling

McKneff said:

For a start, all the money that was in your joint account with your mother is now yours. Your brother has no claim whatsoever on this.. this is the law. 

That is not strictly true, all the money in the account was his mother’s and the reason to set up the account was to protect it from abuse by the OPs brother. 100% of that account forms part of the estate, and it would seem that is how the OP is treating it.

In the OPs shoes I would simply reply that you did not borrow any money, and that you will be providing your brother with a full set of accounts once the estate has been finalised. Unless you brother is a joint executor he is not entitled to anything else, so I would not provided the requested bank statements at this time.

xylophone

100% of that account forms part of the estate, and it would seem that is how the OP is treating it.

The  OP would have had to declare that 100% of the cash in the joint account was provided by mother but once she died, assuming that this was a standard joint account, control and ownership of the money in the account  fell to the OP - she would not have required probate to access the account, no matter how much had been in it.

xylophone

That is not strictly true,

Legally, assuming a standard joint account, it is strictly true. The OP is taking a moral decision.