Very Unique ANPR PCN pursuit by PPC from 08/2017

etcxr

Hi all, 
I've read through all FAQs and haven't found anything inline with my current situation. So I will run you through it. 
Back in May 2017 I parked on 7 occasions on privately owned land, which is a nature reserve's car park. On each occasion I did, it was past 10pm so it was pitch black, the car park empty, and nature reserve centre shut. As the driver, I wasn't the registered keeper (my dads vehicle). I was visiting a friends house near by and was unaware that the car park was ANPR monitored. At the time I assumed it was only enforced by an attendant during opening hours of the reserve. They issued 7 fines (now amounting to over £750!!) all of which arrived over 3 weeks after the date of the most recent contravention. The PPC is Park with Ease. During a quick bout of research I ended up using one of your templates on here to claim the NTK wasn't issued within mandatory 14 days, so no admission to who was driving etc etc. This was an email appeal, which I have proof of, sent on 21st August 2017. They did not reply. So I assumed I won and heard nothing since about 3 weeks ago (yes, nearly 3 years later!!!), when I received ZZPS letters enforcing their clients sum. I emailed ZZPS explaining and linking my original 2017 appeal, and how it wasn't enforceable. I had the usual 'our client confirms that all correspondence was sent and responded accordingly'. So I've taken the matter up with park with ease, and I've claimed about them making assumptions on the driver, not issuing within 14 days in line with pofa 2012, and not responding to my appeal. I have also requested a POPLA code in every email interaction with them. They have now claimed they 'rejected' the appeal on 21st August (same day I sent the appeal) and are pursuing the registered keeper (which is my dad) (I am doing the appeals for him, on his behalf). They are also saying they have not claimed or seek to use POFA 2012, therefore they didn't need to send the letter within 14 days. My latest reply involves once again asking for a POPLA code (which I have never got) and saying if they invoke keeper liability they must use POFA 2012 (I assume I'm correct in saying this?) Also to provide evidence of the rejection of the appeal which I'm 100% certain we never got. I understand you all say ignore all interactions, especially with debt collection agencies, but as you can imagine all emails and letters are going through to my dad, and the idea of the IPCC is making his knees weak. 

Assuming their reply once again will not include a POPLA code nor will they submit to cancelling the fines, what is my next course of action?

N.B. all original NTK's were destroyed after 2 years as I assumed I had won the case (I know very silly on my part, but this cannot be undone now) Only evidence I have is my email appeal from 21/08/17 with no reply from PWE, and the ZZPS enforcement letters from about 3 weeks ago. I also have the email thread from the discussions if any of you wish to know specifics. 

happybagger

The background may be different but the usual procedure should be followed, which you seem to know about
I think in the first instance I'd be sending a SAR to PWE to flush out all the correspondence and PCNs iin particular, given you said they were destroyed.
Remember, as RK, "your dad" needs to do it (email signoffs etc)

D_P_Dance

• what did the signs say about parking after hours?  

. At the time I assumed it was only enforced by an attendant

You almost certainly assumed incorrectly.  ANPR car parks are rarely attended, enforcement is done electronically.  You may struggle with this as a judge might  conclude you did not read the signs, be prepared for many hours reading and research .

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra costs and work, and has been known to get the charge cancelled.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully, when life gets back to normal, it will become impossible for those scammers who are left to continue their vile trade, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

Umkomaas

Is all the correspondence in your father's name?  Or has it crossed over to your name?  When you say you're doing this for your father, do you mean in the background on his behalf, everything under his name, or have you formally notified the PPC that you have your father's permission to do so?

As per @happybagger above, send a SAR to PWE - the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, second post, explains the process. 

Le_Kirk

You cannot quantify uniqueness, it is an absolute term, it is either unique or it's not!  BTW, as you have been advised, it's not unique anyway, just follow the usual procedure with an eye on what Umkomaas posted above.

happybagger

Is all the correspondence in your father's name?  Or has it crossed over to your name?  When you say you're doing this for your father, do you mean in the background on his behalf, everything under his name, or have you formally notified the PPC that you have your father's permission to do so?

At the back of my mind was the thought that somehow, the name of the driver had fallen into the hands of PWE, given that the OP seems to have engaged in more with them than was necessary ("I've requested", etc)

Ralph-y

One possible course of action for you to considerer is an appeal to whoever owns the nature reserve.

Ralph

Coupon-mad

Isn't this exactly the same as the other Brockholes thread (I assume it's there) where Brockholes cancelled it?  This is no different than any other 2017 PCN except there are multiple penalties.  PWE will sue you, and your case will revolve around the signs being dark so you never knew there were any terms and the car park was open and looked a safe place.  

However, for the love of God DO NOT seek out private car parks to visit a friend, in future.  You could have parked on street anywhere that the restrictions had ended in the evening; that's what on-street bays and single yellows are for.  Why do people think ''I know, I'll use that car park, it's bound to be OK when they are closed''? 

Course it's not OK.  Not only is it trespassing but it's unnecessary, and risks a scammer PCN.

Dad MUST email PWE to give your name & address as the driver in every case (carefully quoting every PCN) because if he is rendered weak just thinking about appeal stage - and there is NO APPEAL v IPC firms  so he'd lose - he won't cope with being sued, which is the only winnable stage.

happybagger

etcxr said:

I have also requested a POPLA code in every email interaction with them
...
My latest reply involves once again asking for a POPLA code (which I have never got) 
...
Assuming their reply once again will not include a POPLA code 

You ain't gonna get a POPLA code from an IPC company, ever. Get re-reading that newbies thread, we've all had to

etcxr

Thank you for your honest replies. 
We only contacted PWE once through dads email and as the RK on 21st August 2017. I'm doing the research as my fault but liability for driver never accepted, email as follows: 

I challenge these PCN's as keeper of the car.

Notice to Keeper not issued within the mandatory 14 days, as no windscreen PCN was issued. A Notice to Keeper must not be served later than 14 days after the vehicle was parked. 

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge. 

I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this email a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply. 

Signs I never saw clearly. Just naïvely assumed parking charges only occurred during opening hours. 

I am unsure what to do here? One suggesting admit liability and give up driver name.
Will certainly write to MP regarding 2019 law as ZZPS letters only arrived after start of lockdown, cheeky sods. Far as I'm aware that's first communication they've made in return. Do they not have to give evidence at some point with their proof of rejecting the appeal? ZZPS letters addressed at dads house. Driver different address. 
Will start going in-depth into that code of practice 2019

Does PPC need to use POFA 12 if they are pushing keeper liability to pay? 

Thanks again for responses guys

etcxr

Sorry, to note all current emails that have since ensued with PWE in last week have progressed from lack of ZZPS progress when contacting  them and explaining about appeal, still emailed as RK. Only used RK address in every interaction