Small Deposit - Have my Airline Tickets actually been booked ?

Butts

I paid a £400 deposit on an August Florida Holiday ( Flight/Hotel) back in November with Last Minute.com
The PNR Number for the Flights is not revealed on the booking (blanked out) - you only get access to it when the balance has been paid.
If I contacted British Airways ( who the flights are with) would they tell me if LM had actually reserved the tickets  - they are Club World.
Also I wonder if The Marriott Hotel would likewise confirm if LM had booked the Room for our holiday.
The reason I am asking is I am curious how they were able to do this on the back of a £400 payment on a £4K Holiday.

Westin

There are several ways that a tour operator can provide a schedule flight within a package yet only take a deposit from the customer but most entail a degree of risk on the tour operator’s side.   Typically however only done when the sale is outside of what is called GDS range. GDS being one of the global distribution system used to sell seats. That range is typically around a maximum 330 days out from flight date.  Your November purchase however would be it seem have been within GDS range so it could be that the provider has actually purchased and ticketed the fare yet not collected full payment from you. A big risk in today’s world. Outside of GDS range they may ‘ghost’ the allocations which has tricks behind the scene to do but also is a high gamble that when the fares and availability released that they are available at the price sold at. 

I would think LM have bought your seat from another operator or a broker/consolidater. Not aware that LM typically practice this activity above themselves.  Sometimes clues can be found on the ATOL certificate.

As to finding out from BA the status of your booking. Officially they should not engage or disclose this information to you. GDPR and all that stuff. That said BA seem to regularly leak customer data!

Likewise a hotel overseas although often ways around that if you are just engaging with an innocent front desk team member.  Even then however it is possible the hotel doesn’t have your booking, at least not in your name, in their system.  Much depends on how and through whom LM have purchased your hotel stay from.   If you called up this far in advance of your stay I wouldn’t be too concerned if they said they couldn’t see/find a reservation under your name.

The scheduled airline element of your holiday within a package is typically paid well in advance of travel at a time when the seller ‘tickets’ the booking.  The hotel can have varied payment terms.  Come prepaid/advance pay, some x days before arrival, some at checkin with a draw down from a virtual credit card, some at checkout and some x days post departure.

Not sure if this really answers your question. Much depends...

Butts

Westin apologies for my delay in responding - have just got up - work Night Shifts.
The ATOL Certificate lists the flights as with British Airways but does not list the Hotel.
The Hotel is provided by Travelscape LLC which I believe is part of Expedia - weird they would book with a rival !!! - this is another piece of paperwork.

So effectively I pay a £400 deposit and they are able to reserve £3000+ worth of travel on BA ( with agreement to pay in the future or using existing cash in their system). I only have to pay the £3700 balance a month before travel. Have they got a "credit line" with BA?

With regard to the Hotel I suspect they have paid nothing as it is freely available on booking.com with no advance payment and free cancellation up to 24 hours before departure.

The Hotel is I feel the weak point in their contract if I decide to not pay the balance losing my £400 deposit, but holding onto the £3.7K . It states that on termination of the contract by me any date from when the package was booked (last Nov)
will result in a cancellation charge for the whole value of the Hotel Booking (£1,000). This I believe is an unfair term as it far exceeds the cost to them bearing in mind it's availability to "joe public" on the terms listed above.

Westin

Can you post who issued the ATOL certificate and if it indicated (bottom right) multi contract?  Whilst unlikely I can’t work out if LM have bought a non-commissionable British Airways Holidays Package like a flight+car (under the BAH ATOL)  then just booked your hotel separately, or if they have created the trip under their own ATOL (but then confused as to why the hotel would not be on your ATOL certificate.) 

Buying the flight plus one other component like car rental through British Airways Holidays would actually have allowed for the situation of only a deposit to be paid yet the flight ticketed. It is strange however as BAH is direct sell and therefore don’t sell via agents. LM may however have used this as a method to offer the flights without collecting fully payment.  Some agents know this ‘trick’ as do many frequent flyers as BAH payment terms are better than those offered by BA.  By adding a car or just one night in a cheap hotel that you won’t use, a package is created and you have ATOL protection and lots of other consumer rights.  Many a time I have found a cheaper BAH package than that of just a BA flight.

Possible but I would say doubtful that LM would have a credit line with BA to cover your example.  Typically payments have to be processed once the flight is ticketed. Any credit would be weeks, or when every the next Bank Settle Plan payment  runs.

The hotel credit terms can not be determined from what you currently see on hotel.com. There are a multitude of payment terms based on different restrictions on room purchased and through whom. You can not assume free cancellation just because that is available on hotel.com at the moment.

If your contract with LM says that you are only liable for the loss on the deposit paid should you not make full payment of the balance, then your liability should stop at that point.  If however it says something different then be careful as you may be liable for additional costs if you do not pay and every chance that  LM would look to ultimately chase you for that debt.

Butts

Westin said:

Can you post who issued the ATOL certificate and if it indicated (bottom right) multi contract?  Whilst unlikely I can’t work out if LM have bought a non-commissionable British Airways Holidays Package like a flight+car (under the BAH ATOL)  then just booked your hotel separately, or if they have created the trip under their own ATOL (but then confused as to why the hotel would not be on your ATOL certificate.) 

Buying the flight plus one other component like car rental through British Airways Holidays would actually have allowed for the situation of only a deposit to be paid yet the flight ticketed. It is strange however as BAH is direct sell and therefore don’t sell via agents. LM may however have used this as a method to offer the flights without collecting fully payment.  Some agents know this ‘trick’ as do many frequent flyers as BAH payment terms are better than those offered by BA.  By adding a car or just one night in a cheap hotel that you won’t use, a package is created and you have ATOL protection and lots of other consumer rights.  Many a time I have found a cheaper BAH package than that of just a BA flight.

Possible but I would say doubtful that LM would have a credit line with BA to cover your example.  Typically payments have to be processed once the flight is ticketed. Any credit would be weeks, or when every the next Bank Settle Plan payment  runs.

The hotel credit terms can not be determined from what you currently see on hotel.com. There are a multitude of payment terms based on different restrictions on room purchased and through whom. You can not assume free cancellation just because that is available on hotel.com at the moment.

If your contract with LM says that you are only liable for the loss on the deposit paid should you not make full payment of the balance, then your liability should stop at that point.  If however it says something different then be careful as you may be liable for additional costs if you do not pay and every chance that  LM would look to ultimately chase you for that debt.

The ATOL Certificate is issued by BravoNext SA with a Swiss address.
The bottom right hand corner says Package (Single Contract)
It says my Flight and Hotel Package to Orlando for 14 Nights is protected.
The Flights are listed but not the Hotel.
There is no monetary breakdown - it says you can find more detailed information on your booking , including price, on the confirmation you will receive from BravoNext SA.

Westin

Thanks.

Forget the BAH idea then. BravoNext is LastMinute.com and so it seems everything is under their ATOL licence.  I can only think that they have paid out the full fare to BA and have taken the gamble by only collecting a deposit from you. That’s a big risk to them.

I would carefully read your booking terms and conditions if you are thinking of not paying the final balance.  If they have paid the full amount to BA every chance they would chase the debit.

Butts

Westin said:

Thanks.

Forget the BAH idea then. BravoNext is LastMinute.com and so it seems everything is under their ATOL licence.  I can only think that they have paid out the full fare to BA and have taken the gamble by only collecting a deposit from you. That’s a big risk to them.

I would carefully read your booking terms and conditions if you are thinking of not paying the final balance.  If they have paid the full amount to BA every chance they would chase the debit.

That's why I wanted to try and find out surreptitiously direct from BA if they had done. No PNR Number as you only get that on paying the balance to Last Minute. We are talking about £1.5K air tickets (each) and i can't see them fronting that up.

if BA would talk to me and I find out they have not booked anything I'm home and dry. 

bagand96

I'd agree with @Westin that it is unlikely Bravofly/Lastminute have a credit line with British Airways allowing them to secure a price for a flight with a small deposit .  In years gone by many airlines would have such arrangements with tour operators/agents, but they have largely died out since the .com travel boom and the changes it's had on the industry.

I would be astounded if Lastminute have not booked your flights.  To sell you a package based on a price, but not actually book the flights until months later would be a massive business gamble. I've not heard of even the shoddiest agents (of which I'd count Lastminute.com one) operating in that manner.

That really just leaves the only possibility that LM/Bravofly have booked the flights and fronted the cost themselves.  When you book a package with them, they point you to the cancellation policies of each product. For example:

"Flight

The cancellation fee is 100% of the flight cost. However, you may be entitled, where applicable, to the reimbursement of certain costs by the airline."

In addition to those cancellation conditions, the Lastminute.com Terms and Conditions also state the following:

"Non-payment of the total price for the package holiday within the required deadline automatically triggers Vendor''s termination of the contract with the User. Following this contract termination, the Vendor may retain the amount paid by the User at the time of booking as an advance of the damages incurred, typically established at the rate of 90% of the total price of the chosen holiday package. The User gives their full consent to Bravonext to directly charge the card used for the booking, to recover the difference between the amount paid for the booking (deposit) and the remaining penalty"

It all points to them booking non-refundable flights at the time of booking.  Even though you haven't paid in full, it's likely that they have.  If you tried not to cancel I'd suggest they may well chase that debt, as you say it's not an insignificant amount of money.

Butts

bagand96 said:

I'd agree with @Westin that it is unlikely Bravofly/Lastminute have a credit line with British Airways allowing them to secure a price for a flight with a small deposit .  In years gone by many airlines would have such arrangements with tour operators/agents, but they have largely died out since the .com travel boom and the changes it's had on the industry.

I would be astounded if Lastminute have not booked your flights.  To sell you a package based on a price, but not actually book the flights until months later would be a massive business gamble. I've not heard of even the shoddiest agents (of which I'd count Lastminute.com one) operating in that manner.

That really just leaves the only possibility that LM/Bravofly have booked the flights and fronted the cost themselves.  When you book a package with them, they point you to the cancellation policies of each product. For example:

"Flight

The cancellation fee is 100% of the flight cost. However, you may be entitled, where applicable, to the reimbursement of certain costs by the airline."

In addition to those cancellation conditions, the Lastminute.com Terms and Conditions also state the following:

"Non-payment of the total price for the package holiday within the required deadline automatically triggers Vendor''s termination of the contract with the User. Following this contract termination, the Vendor may retain the amount paid by the User at the time of booking as an advance of the damages incurred, typically established at the rate of 90% of the total price of the chosen holiday package. The User gives their full consent to Bravonext to directly charge the card used for the booking, to recover the difference between the amount paid for the booking (deposit) and the remaining penalty"

It all points to them booking non-refundable flights at the time of booking.  Even though you haven't paid in full, it's likely that they have.  If you tried not to cancel I'd suggest they may well chase that debt, as you say it's not an insignificant amount of money.

Thanks for your input , assuming I could get through to BA would they tell me if it was booked or not ?
Also why don't Last Minute release the PNR code for the flight until you have paid the balance, if i had this I could validate the booking myself. A more suspicious person may suspect they have no PNR number as they have not paid for the flights yet and only do so when they get the balance.

Did you notice the glaring anomaly in their terms and conditions - damages 90% of the Holiday package - pure hokum !!

This must have happened before someone refusing to pay the balance yet no one can find any record of them or anyone else taking someone to Court - strange that- probably because said terms are unfair and unenforceable ?

bagand96

Butts said:

Thanks for your input , assuming I could get through to BA would they tell me if it was booked or not ?
Also why don't Last Minute release the PNR code for the flight until you have paid the balance, if i had this I could validate the booking myself.

Did you notice the glaring anomaly in their terms and conditions - damages 90% of the Holiday package - pure hokum !!

This must have happened before someone refusing to pay the balance yet no one can find any record of them or anyone else taking someone to Court - strange that- probably because said terms are unfair and unenforceable ?

Not sure if BA would tell you anything or not.  The conversation could go many ways, but if booked via an agent then most airlines won't deal with you.  In theory you might be able to get BA to tell you if they can see a reservation, but I'd guess its equally as likely they won't tell you. 

They say typically 90%.  It would obviously vary, but if they'd fronted up flight costs, and the hotel was booked on a non-refundable basis, then LM/Bravofly's losses could well be that much.

You may have a point about unfair and unenforceable T&Cs.  In your case with the flights though, LM would have to provide proof that they had booked them and that they cannot recover the costs.  That wouldn't be hard for them to do.  

Butts

bagand96 said:

Butts said:

Thanks for your input , assuming I could get through to BA would they tell me if it was booked or not ?
Also why don't Last Minute release the PNR code for the flight until you have paid the balance, if i had this I could validate the booking myself.

Did you notice the glaring anomaly in their terms and conditions - damages 90% of the Holiday package - pure hokum !!

This must have happened before someone refusing to pay the balance yet no one can find any record of them or anyone else taking someone to Court - strange that- probably because said terms are unfair and unenforceable ?

Not sure if BA would tell you anything or not.  The conversation could go many ways, but if booked via an agent then most airlines won't deal with you.  In theory you might be able to get BA to tell you if they can see a reservation, but I'd guess its equally as likely they won't tell you. 

They say typically 90%.  It would obviously vary, but if they'd fronted up flight costs, and the hotel was booked on a non-refundable basis, then LM/Bravofly's losses could well be that much.

You may have a point about unfair and unenforceable T&Cs.  In your case with the flights though, LM would have to provide proof that they had booked them and that they cannot recover the costs.  That wouldn't be hard for them to do.  

The Hotel part of the package was booked by Last Minute through Travelscape LLC which is actually a subsidiary of Expedia - weird using a rival for a hotel booking.

In the cancellation terms it says the whole amount is payable from the day you book it (Nov 19) in my case. This is patently an unfair term as I (joe public) can secure it on a  pay on arrival/ cancel 24hrs before even now. As a large operator I'm sure they are able to secure the most favourable terms. Thus what they are trying to charge is not "reasonable or justifiable" throwing doubt on the whole validity of the contract.