Figure of Speech help 6 May 2020 at 4:26PM in Over 50s MoneySaving 10 replies 791 views

maggiesoup

Can anyone tell me if "so many fewer passengers" is a taughtology or an oxymoron?

Sorry, got too much time on our hands!

Savvy_Sue

Well, it doesn't seem like an oxymoron. My favourite example is 'Military intelligence' - a contradiction in terms. 

A tautology is using too many words, and I don't think it's one of them either. 

I'm struggling to say what it is. There are fewer passengers, and the 'many' describes the degree of the reduction. 

For example, there are many fewer passengers on our local trains, to the extent that I'm surprised they are still running a full service. If there were only a few fewer, then that would still be necessary. 

Pollycat

Personally, I'd say 'far fewer passengers'.

Or 'a lot less passengers'.

'so many fewer' just doesn't sound right to me.

Like Savvy_Sue, I don't think either term you've given is correct.

maggiesoup

Thanks for answers.  I'm afraid you'll have to take it up with Evan Davis on Radio 4.  We thought it sounded odd too !

Pollycat

I've got a glass of chilled Pinot with my name on it that's far more important.

Savvy_Sue

Pollycat said:

Personally, I'd say 'far fewer passengers'.

Or 'a lot less passengers'.

'so many fewer' just doesn't sound right to me.

Like Savvy_Sue, I don't think either term you've given is correct.

I agree there are situations where I'd say 'far fewer' but there are others where that just wouldn't sound right, eg in the example I gave, you could say 'far fewer passengers, to the extent that I'm surprised  ...' but you might also say 'there are so many fewer passengers, to the extent that I'm surprised ...' and you definitely can't say 'so far fewer' you have to say 'so many fewer'. 

Just as long as no-one starts on Fronted Adverbials ...

Sterlingtimes

I found a technical explanation:
Many is an adjective, while much is an adverb. As such, many cannot modify the adjective fewer; only an adverb can modify an adjective. Much fewer is simply more correct than many fewer, despite its cacophony. Many modifies a noun: many apples. Much modifies the adjective: much fewer apples or far fewer apples.
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/371335/much-many-fewer

Sterlingtimes

I notice that younger people substitute "way" for "far". Even journalists who are adopting "way".

pollypenny

Tautology is repeating the same concept using different words. Eg. It was an enormous gigantic tree. 

jimbo6977

Sterlingtimes said:

I found a technical explanation:
Many is an adjective, while much is an adverb. As such, many cannot modify the adjective fewer; only an adverb can modify an adjective. Much fewer is simply more correct than many fewer, despite its cacophony. Many modifies a noun: many apples. Much modifies the adjective: much fewer apples or far fewer apples.
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/371335/much-many-fewer

Would “... many [plural countable noun] fewer ...” also be correct in the right context?

”A punnet holds many apples fewer than a barrel.”

Sterlingtimes

jimbo6977 said:

Sterlingtimes said:

I found a technical explanation:
Many is an adjective, while much is an adverb. As such, many cannot modify the adjective fewer; only an adverb can modify an adjective. Much fewer is simply more correct than many fewer, despite its cacophony. Many modifies a noun: many apples. Much modifies the adjective: much fewer apples or far fewer apples.
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/371335/much-many-fewer

Would “... many [plural countable noun] fewer ...” also be correct in the right context?

”A punnet holds many apples fewer than a barrel.”

I think that a qualified person would need to comment.
We would say, How MANY apples are in the barrel? How MUCH apple juice is in the barrel? How MANY gallons of apple juice are in the barrel?
Therefore, "a punnet holds MUCH less apple juice than a barrel [does]" seems as correct as "a punnet holds MANY fewer apples than a barrel [does]".