Lost temporary job due to Corona Virus lock-down - only got £18 for a MONTH of Universal Credit

calcotti

It says information which is received by DWP in the AP is to be used, it doesn't say the date on which the information is received is the date to be used which is what your previous post appeared to say.

makara

poppy12345 said:

To be fair, UC isn't the easiest benefit to understand and looking at information before claiming is probably the last thing on peoples minds, especially when they have no money to live.

Thanks, Poppy.  You summed it up perfectly.

And to make matters worse...in my initial call to initiate my claim, after waiting 6 hours on the phone for someone to answer, the advisor who took the initial call of course rushed through everything - as she needed to get on to the next financial victim of Corona Virus.

Then the same thing happened when my local DWP office called me a few days later to finalise things.  

My point being - face-to-face meetings in a DWP office would possibly have ensured the staff could better cover all the possible scenarios and pitfalls to the person, and could perhaps suggest which benefit was better to them. 

As you imply, we are not all versed in the nuances of UC / other benefits

- in my case the last time I claimed was 4 years ago for only 2 months.  I am guessing things have changed and changed since then.

JessicaF_2

calcotti said:

It says information which is received by DWP in the AP is to be used, it doesn't say the date on which the information is received is the date to be used which is what your previous post appeared to say.

I think it can be read in the way I said. But regardless, that is how it has been interpreted by DWP and how it works in practice - it goes into the assessment period based on the date DWP receive the information from HMRC. I don't really know what else to say. 

calcotti

JessicaF_2 said:

calcotti said:

It says information which is received by DWP in the AP is to be used, it doesn't say the date on which the information is received is the date to be used which is what your previous post appeared to say.

That is how it has been interpreted by DWP and how it works in practice - it goes into the assessment period based on the date DWP receive the information from HMRC. I don't really know what else to say. 

Makes me wonder then at what point do HMRC send information to DWP. If HMRC receive the RTI information on the same day as the payment date is it sent to DWP that same day? If the employer send the RTI information early do HMRC forward that on the date they receive or do they only forward it on the payment date.

poppy12345

makara said:

poppy12345 said:

To be fair, UC isn't the easiest benefit to understand and looking at information before claiming is probably the last thing on peoples minds, especially when they have no money to live.

My point being - face-to-face meetings in a DWP office would possibly have ensured the staff could better cover all the possible scenarios and pitfalls to the person, and could perhaps suggest which benefit was better to them. 

That most likely wouldn't have happened because they are not the best people to ask for benefit advice, even though they work in the Job centre.

calcotti

makara said: My point being - face-to-face meetings in a DWP office would possibly have ensured the staff could better cover all the possible scenarios and pitfalls to the person, and could perhaps suggest which benefit was better to them. 

Even in normal times by the time you had got to a face to face appointment I think the Stop Notice would already have been sent to Tax Credits. There is now a warning on the UC claim page.

JessicaF_2

calcotti said:

JessicaF_2 said:

calcotti said:

It says information which is received by DWP in the AP is to be used, it doesn't say the date on which the information is received is the date to be used which is what your previous post appeared to say.

That is how it has been interpreted by DWP and how it works in practice - it goes into the assessment period based on the date DWP receive the information from HMRC. I don't really know what else to say. 

Makes me wonder then at what point do HMRC send information to DWP. If HMRC receive the RTI information on the same day as the payment date is it sent to DWP that same day? If the employer send the RTI information early do HMRC forward that on the date they receive or do they only forward it on the payment date.

Yes, so it is the date in box 43 (which says 'payment date' but as I explained above might be the contractual pay date) that determines that. DWP system basically asks the HMRC system - have you got any info for this person today and if there is a submission with today's date in the box, it goes across to DWP. That is why the 9pm cut-off is important, i have seen a couple of cases where the employer sent the submission to HMRC at 10pm, but it went to DWP the following day and was then used in the next assessement period (as it happened, their assessment period changed at that same point). 

So to answer your question, if the employer puts the actual payment date and sends the submission to HMRC that same day (before 9pm) then yes it will go straight across to DWP that same day. If the employer sends the RTI info early, then it just stays at HMRC until the date in box 43 is reached and then it is transferred across to DWP. Or at least that is my understanding from what I have seen. 
Edited to add: that is why late payment submissions are problematic. Even if the actual payment date is put in the box, if it goes to HMRC after that date, it will get pulled through to DWP the next time the DWP system asks HMRC for any new data. The fact the actual payment date is in the box doesn't help. 

Spoonie_Turtle

poppy12345 said:

makara said:

poppy12345 said:

To be fair, UC isn't the easiest benefit to understand and looking at information before claiming is probably the last thing on peoples minds, especially when they have no money to live.

My point being - face-to-face meetings in a DWP office would possibly have ensured the staff could better cover all the possible scenarios and pitfalls to the person, and could perhaps suggest which benefit was better to them. 

That most likely wouldn't have happened because they are not the best people to ask for benefit advice, even though they work in the Job centre.

calcotti said:

makara said: My point being - face-to-face meetings in a DWP office would possibly have ensured the staff could better cover all the possible scenarios and pitfalls to the person, and could perhaps suggest which benefit was better to them. 

Even in normal times by the time you had got to a face to face appointment I think the Stop Notice would already have been sent to Tax Credits. There is now a warning on the UC claim page.

Just quoting these two points for emphasis! People who've fallen foul of UC and lost TC are victims of the pandemic and of, shall we say, incomplete government advice - but in that respect, nothing different would have happened for someone who applied for UC in normal times without fully understanding it. It just happens that so very many people have unfortunately done it recently due to the current situation.

The warning on the UC claim page is better than never, but still far too late for hunddreds of thousands of people.

calcotti

JessicaF_2 said:So to answer your question, if the employer puts the actual payment date and sends the submission to HMRC that same day (before 9pm) then yes it will go straight across to DWP that same day. If the employer sends the RTI info early, then it just stays at HMRC until the date in box 43 is reached and then it is transferred across to DWP. Or at least that is my understanding from what I have seen. 

Edited to add: that is why late payment submissions are problematic. Even if the actual payment date is put in the box, if it goes to HMRC after that date, it will get pulled through to DWP the next time the DWP system asks HMRC for any new data. The fact the actual payment date is in the box doesn't help. 

That's really helpful and clearly explained. Thanks for doing that.
I guess claimant has the option of raising dispute if they have been disadvantaged because employer did a late return (which of course they are not supposed to do).
Highlights the importance of the employer understanding the significance of the different boxes (which in many cases they probably don't).

JessicaF_2

calcotti said:

JessicaF_2 said:So to answer your question, if the employer puts the actual payment date and sends the submission to HMRC that same day (before 9pm) then yes it will go straight across to DWP that same day. If the employer sends the RTI info early, then it just stays at HMRC until the date in box 43 is reached and then it is transferred across to DWP. Or at least that is my understanding from what I have seen. 

Edited to add: that is why late payment submissions are problematic. Even if the actual payment date is put in the box, if it goes to HMRC after that date, it will get pulled through to DWP the next time the DWP system asks HMRC for any new data. The fact the actual payment date is in the box doesn't help. 

That's really helpful and clearly explained. Thanks for doing that.
I guess claimant has the option of raising dispute if they have been disadvantaged because employer did a late return (which of course they are not supposed to do).
Highlights the importance of the employer understanding the significance of the different boxes (which in many cases they probably don't).

No problem, i think few people understand the complexities because it the majority of cases it either works ok or it looks like the actual payment date was used. You can dispute and/or appeal - there is some flexibility in the regs were the data is clearly wrong. Plus the way earnings are treated has been challenged by CPAG in the Johnson case so it will be interesting to see where that goes. This is all becoming an issue even more now though because of the disruptions to payrolls. It is a headache.