Scotland and face masks - how when there are none?

neilmcl

cognoscenti said:

neilmcl said:

cognoscenti said:

Nicola Sturgeon in her wisdom is recommending that Scots wear face masks when shopping and travelling to prevent the virus.
One small problem - unless you either want to spend an absolute fortune from what very few places will sell you one that works and that actually have any you ca't buy them.
Do-it-yourself ones have been tested and found to be useless and the single-use surgical ones don't stop the virus, so where are these masks going to come from? 

She hasn't recommended wearing face masks, she said face coverings. Most types of simple face covering are sufficient to limit the spread if used correctly and used by all. Remember wearing a mask is about preventing the spread of the virus from an infected person not about stopping you from getting it. You don't need to be wearing FFP3/N95 masks in the general community nor should you be trying to get hold of these.

No, face coverings are not sufficient to limit the spread so even saying that is pointless.
There is no evidence whatsoever to support that and no research suggesting any benefit from face-covering.

Research has been done on a variety of coverings from a bandana upwards and they are pointless because the particle size of the virus is far smaller than any of the coverings could stop & that includes vacuum cleaner bags etc.
That applies whether you are infected or not since no face protection is one-way only.

Do a web search for "the-materials-that-filter-particles-best-in-homemade-masks-testing-2020" and see for yourself.

Unless you're in a medical setting face masks are potentially more harmful than beneficial for a number of reasons, rendering even FFP3/N95 masks pretty pointless in a general setting.

You don't get it. FFP3/N95 masks are designed specifically to filter the air coming into the wearer, which is what they should do. Wearing face coverings in a public setting, such as a supermarket is all about limiting the spread of virus from an infected person so if everyone is wearing one, and that is the key, then the distance of the particles being spread is limited.

I'm well aware of the potential risks of wearing masks by the general public particularly if they're wearing one in a vain hope of not catching the virus but this is about stopping those spreading it not stopping you from catching it, and if everyone is forced to wear some form of face covering in an enclosed space then that can indeed have benefit.

cognoscenti

unholyangel said:

Have you actually read the guidance they published? Or just some daily rags take on it? You don't need to respond to that, I already know the answer as the guidance specifically tells you by face covering, they do not mean surgical or medical grade masks.

The guidance was actually to remind those currently wearing face coverings that the evidence supports them being of limited use, it does not mean they will not get the virus or that they should not adhere to social distancing or that they should not wash their hands thoroughly or that they should be venturing outside unless its essential. 

Guidance in post above for anyone who wants a read.

Yes I read it thank you very much and that was why I posted.
Again, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Sturgeons' suggestion is in any way beneficial.
That's why the guidance is worded as it is, with "may be" being the go-to phrase of choice.
"May be beneficial" means nothing when no research or evidence supports that statement.

cognoscenti

neilmcl said:

cognoscenti said:

GabiB said:

I think it’s face covering (scarf, t-shirt, bandana) not face mask. Personally I would just use a covering and not deprive the NHS of something.

I can appreciate that some people feel the need of a safety blanket or to feel that they're protecting themselves/others but it's a false sense of security according to research.

It's not about protecting yourself, it's about protecting others from you.

That would be great if it did.
Show me some evidence that it does.

unholyangel

cognoscenti said:

unholyangel said:

Have you actually read the guidance they published? Or just some daily rags take on it? You don't need to respond to that, I already know the answer as the guidance specifically tells you by face covering, they do not mean surgical or medical grade masks.

The guidance was actually to remind those currently wearing face coverings that the evidence supports them being of limited use, it does not mean they will not get the virus or that they should not adhere to social distancing or that they should not wash their hands thoroughly or that they should be venturing outside unless its essential. 

Guidance in post above for anyone who wants a read.

Yes I read it thank you very much and that was why I posted.
Again, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Sturgeons' suggestion is in any way beneficial.
That's why the guidance is worded as it is, with "may be" being the go-to phrase of choice.
"May be beneficial" means nothing when no research or evidence supports that statement.

So if you read it, surely you also read the paragraph that says:

By face coverings we do not mean the wearing of a surgical or other medical grade mask but a facial covering of the mouth and nose, that is made of cloth or other textiles and through which you can breathe, for example a scarf.

Also I wouldn't say there is no research or evidence that supports it. There is actually some evidence that shows it can be helpful in preventing the spread of infection, but as the guidance says....it's only in very limited circumstances. If someone is still constantly touching their face or touching items in a supermarket before removing the mask, it's probably just going to increase their chances of catching it - as they'll be transferring the virus into easy reach of their respiratory system. 

[Deleted User]

Thrugelmir said:

Plenty of unsuitable counterfeit product circulating out of China. 

I can see 3M N95 masks for sale on Chinese sites.   Do you reckon they're fake then?   I guess there's no way of knowing but they might not be?

ToxicWomble

 Maybe now people will have a semblance of sympathy for the government before jumping up and down shouting “scandal” at the lack of PPE -not quite as easy to get hold of as you thought is it ??

cognoscenti

unholyangel said:

cognoscenti said:

unholyangel said:

Have you actually read the guidance they published? Or just some daily rags take on it? You don't need to respond to that, I already know the answer as the guidance specifically tells you by face covering, they do not mean surgical or medical grade masks.

The guidance was actually to remind those currently wearing face coverings that the evidence supports them being of limited use, it does not mean they will not get the virus or that they should not adhere to social distancing or that they should not wash their hands thoroughly or that they should be venturing outside unless its essential. 

Guidance in post above for anyone who wants a read.

Yes I read it thank you very much and that was why I posted.
Again, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Sturgeons' suggestion is in any way beneficial.
That's why the guidance is worded as it is, with "may be" being the go-to phrase of choice.
"May be beneficial" means nothing when no research or evidence supports that statement.

So if you read it, surely you also read the paragraph that says:

By face coverings we do not mean the wearing of a surgical or other medical grade mask but a facial covering of the mouth and nose, that is made of cloth or other textiles and through which you can breathe, for example a scarf.

Also I wouldn't say there is no research or evidence that supports it. There is actually some evidence that shows it can be helpful in preventing the spread of infection, but as the guidance says....it's only in very limited circumstances. If someone is still constantly touching their face or touching items in a supermarket before removing the mask, it's probably just going to increase their chances of catching it - as they'll be transferring the virus into easy reach of their respiratory system. 

Again there is no evidence whatsoever to support her saying that.
None.
Feel free to find some and post it since you're saying there is such a thing.

What you would or would not say does not match reality because some experts are baffled why Nicola has said this too.
Like Prof. of the Epidemiology of Infectious Diseases at Nott'm Uni, Dr Keith Neal, who said it was " impossible to know why this has been suggested now given there has been no change in the evidence".
Or our own deputy chief scientific advisor who just this afternoon has said that the evidence is weak and benefits minimal.

I'm not having a go at Nicola Sturgeon as such and I don't want to appear argumentative to those suggesting benefits of wearing face coverings in more general use.
The point is that this has been said without any supporting research or evidence whatsoever.

I don't for one moment doubt that if Boris had made such a suggestion there would be numerous threads all ripping him apart because of the reasons I suggest Sturgeon is wrong.
Well regardless of whose suggestion it was it is bad advice which, we have been repeatedly warned, can lead to a sense of false security.
That is not good for the public.

cognoscenti

Poster_586329 said:

Thrugelmir said:

Plenty of unsuitable counterfeit product circulating out of China. 

I can see 3M N95 masks for sale on Chinese sites.   Do you reckon they're fake then?   I guess there's no way of knowing but they might not be?

Fake or real, what do you reckon your chances are of getting any this year once you've parted with your cash?

[Deleted User]

cognoscenti said:

Poster_586329 said:

Thrugelmir said:

Plenty of unsuitable counterfeit product circulating out of China. 

I can see 3M N95 masks for sale on Chinese sites.   Do you reckon they're fake then?   I guess there's no way of knowing but they might not be?

Fake or real, what do you reckon your chances are of getting any this year once you've parted with your cash?

I'd say the odds are pretty good, because there are loads of reviews from people saying they've received them.  But I'm not going to post the link in case my dear readers here snap them up first!!

By the way this is a really great read:   https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/28/face-masks-coveted-commodity-coronavirus-pandemic

That article alerted me to this Cambridge-based company (which has its own factory in China).  You can order a mask from them today.... though you won't get it till August!:

https://preorder.cambridgemask.com/

ToxicWomble

As far as I aware, the wearing of any mask that isn’t the full medical grade (N95) or better does little or nothing to protect the wearer.
Surgeons only wear the mask they do to prevent them passing germs to patients - not the other way round.