Garden Boundaries

princeofpounds

OP - thanks for all the extra information. Beginning to understand the layout more.

- Am I correct in saying then that most of the pictures we are looking at are generally of the boundary at the 'north' end of your neighbour's garden?
- And *therefore mostly not showing the long thin path that leads to the main area, which is the main concern for access*?
- Is that path what we get a glimpse of in the second photo you posted, at the top left? That looks VERY narrow if so.
- Does the path actually run along the blue line you have drawn out? Because it gives the impression that it's running in your neighbour's garden all the way up until where it meets the main area of your relative's garden, and not that it runs behind the shed along the left-hand boundary with the other neighbour as the title plan would seem to suggest.

OK, here are some thoughts for you:
- The most prominent feature on the ground that defines the width of the narrow strip leading to the main garden actually appears to be the edge of the brick shed. Is the neighbour infringing further 'west' than the edge of the shed with their new fence?
- The boundary at the northern end of your neighbour's garden is less easy to identify with reference to fixed features. It's a classic case of that in fact:
1. The neighbour has clearly taken the furthest-away feature that could be a candidate, the edge of the paving that is almost certainly owned by your relative.
2. But the boundary could be at the 'kerb' where the land level steps up slightly to the grassy area (it would be interesting to know what used to be here, unfortunately). The step up in the paving stones would also suggest this could be candidate.
3. Or it could be inline with the middle of the hedge - the presence of the washing line pole is a strong indicator here. 

This is where surveyors come in useful, because they will be able to work with the legal conventions that typically decide these matters. (To give you an example of how complicated it can be http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/boundary-problems/hedges.html). My guess is that the boundary is more likely to be indicated by features 2) or 3) than 1), but I'm not a surveyor.

It does look like an infringement, but to be honest I wouldn't be that bothered about a few inches at the north end of the neighbour's garden - what is happening along the access path is more important and I'm not sure these photos really show it.

jimbog

HayleyB26 said:

tommyedinburgh said:

jimbog said:

Ask for the fence panels to be flush to their side of the posts to give you elbow room

This sounds like a decent compromise as a starting point for speaking to them. 

Yeah definitely, gives us somewhere to start at least. 

We've managed to take some better photos, showing the bushes as the boundary and where the new fence posts have been installed.

Looking at this I would now be unhappy. The posts are on your relative's property (well the post nearest to us is) - common sense says it should be in line with the grass on the right. Curious as to why they haven't put the fence panels up yet

Mojisola

HayleyB26 said:

We've managed to take some better photos, showing the bushes as the boundary and where the new fence posts have been installed.

Surely the washing line pole and the middle of the hedge mark the boundary?

You wouldn't have the pole for your washing line in the neighbour's garden.

HayleyB26

princeofpounds said:

OP - thanks for all the extra information. Beginning to understand the layout more..

The neighbours garden is unregistered due to being council owned, so unable to access any title plans to distinguish what side is his. I’m assuming the path going down is a communal path, as doesn’t seem to belong to my relative from the title plan, as their red line is from the end of the shed down to their main patch of garden at the bottom. The path that does belong to my relative is the path hat has been narrowed with the post, north of the neighbour’s garden. This is where I have demonstrated with the black dots as the bushes.

- Am I correct in saying then that most of the pictures we are looking at are generally of the boundary at the 'north' end of your neighbour's garden?

Yeah, the north end of the neighbours, south end of my relative’s.

- And *therefore mostly not showing the long thin path that leads to the main area, which is the main concern for access*?

The photo showing the fence post the other side of the concrete post is the main concern for access as it is very narrow already, without the added restriction of a fence.

- Is that path what we get a glimpse of in the second photo you posted, at the top left? That looks VERY narrow if so.

- Does the path actually run along the blue line you have drawn out? Because it gives the impression that it's running in your neighbour's garden all the way up until where it meets the main area of your relative's garden, and not that it runs behind the shed along the left-hand boundary with the other neighbour as the title plan would seem to suggest.

On the title plan, it doesn’t look like it distinguishes the path, the path goes alongside the neighbours garden towards the relative’s garden and also my relative has a small patch on the left of the path walking toward their main garden.

Again, put the answers in italics. Thanks for all of your advice, really appreciate it. 

HayleyB26

jimbog said:

HayleyB26 said:

tommyedinburgh said:

jimbog said:

Ask for the fence panels to be flush to their side of the posts to give you elbow room

This sounds like a decent compromise as a starting point for speaking to them. 

Yeah definitely, gives us somewhere to start at least. 

We've managed to take some better photos, showing the bushes as the boundary and where the new fence posts have been installed.

Looking at this I would now be unhappy. The posts are on your relative's property (well the post nearest to us is) - common sense says it should be in line with the grass on the right. Curious as to why they haven't put the fence panels up yet

Yeah, to me it seems as though the boundary should be the washing pole/grass line. Not too sure as to why the fence panels haven't gone up yet, possibly a supply issue. 

Mojisola said:

HayleyB26 said:

We've managed to take some better photos, showing the bushes as the boundary and where the new fence posts have been installed.

Surely the washing line pole and the middle of the hedge mark the boundary?

You wouldn't have the pole for your washing line in the neighbour's garden.

Yeah makes sense really, as going to be difficult to hang washing over a fence LOL

Mojisola

HayleyB26 said:

Yeah, to me it seems as though the boundary should be the washing pole/grass line.

And - just noticed - the change in level.

If the neighbour owned all the land up to where the new post has been put in, it's unlikely that there would be a step down just before the boundary.

princeofpounds

Hi again OP. It looks like a co
I think one of the things that was so confusing about your case is that you are very worried about the width of a garden path. Most people would be imagining that this is the path that leads to your relative's garden at the back of the plot, especially because the title plan appears to allocate room for just such a path starting behind the shed and running up the side of the plot.

I understand two important things now:

- The path you are worried about is actually across that 'southern' edge of the main area of your relative's garden. It isn't actually constrained on one side, it's just that the neighbour has fixed their fenceposts right up against the concrete slabs.

- The access to your relative's garden appears to be via a path that has little to do with the title plan, and probably runs through the neighbour's plot as much as it does your relative's . Don't worry, your relative does have a right of way through your neighbour's garden - won't go into that here as it's a red herring but look up how easements are granted if you're interested.

As you can see, a couple of other posters also think its most likely that the boundary feature is not the edge of the paving slabs, but either the step-down in level or the post/hedge. Incidentally, following up on the link I gave you earlier to illustrate the complexity of locating boundary features and why surveyors are used in legal disputes - this would probably have been a better one to pick: http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/boundary-problems/work-out-where-bdy.html

Anyway, given what we have established, I think we can say the following:
- The neighbour has probably encroached on your relative's garden by assuming the boundary line is the edge of the path, and not the other two features it could be (the step-down or the hedge/pole). 
- Non-expert consensus opinion (well, ~3-4 of us so far) is that your neighbour has got it wrong, and that one of the other two features is more likely to mark the boundary. 
- A friendly discussion is the best opportunity for solving this problem. You may wish to have a survey report at this stage or not. It's probably not necessary in the very first instance.
- If discussion doesn't work, the next best approach would be mediation, probably a jointly-appointed surveyor and/or mediator.
- If that is not going to work, then your relative has to decide if they want to go legal. Often going legal is not worth it for a matter of a few inches, as there are significant costs involved (4-5 figures depending on the type of dispute, plus the hassle and the dispute being on record in a future sale). Legal insurance could support your relative if they have it, of course.
- This looks like a case that is a matter of a few inches, but it is aggravated by the effect on the path. Because the path is not constrained on one side, the 'backing down' approach would be to move the slabs away from the new fence a few inches. It's not remotely hard for someone fit. I'm not recommending it, but it's an option.
- Personally, I would fight the encroachment, but this is a personal decision because it will all depend on your relative's resources and situation. 

I hope all this has helped so far, at least to frame your thinking, and thanks for bearing with all the questions. I suppose it's now probably time to reflect on the cost/benefits of these various decisions, have that conversation with the neighbour and see where it goes. 

HayleyB26

princeofpounds said:

Hi again OP. It looks like a co
I think one of the things that was so confusing about your case is that you are very worried about the width of a garden path. Most people would be imagining that this is the path that leads to your relative's garden at the back of the plot, especially because the title plan appears to allocate room for just such a path starting behind the shed and running up the side of the plot.

I understand two important things now:

- The path you are worried about is actually across that 'southern' edge of the main area of your relative's garden. It isn't actually constrained on one side, it's just that the neighbour has fixed their fenceposts right up against the concrete slabs.

- The access to your relative's garden appears to be via a path that has little to do with the title plan, and probably runs through the neighbour's plot as much as it does your relative's . Don't worry, your relative does have a right of way through your neighbour's garden - won't go into that here as it's a red herring but look up how easements are granted if you're interested.

As you can see, a couple of other posters also think its most likely that the boundary feature is not the edge of the paving slabs, but either the step-down in level or the post/hedge. Incidentally, following up on the link I gave you earlier to illustrate the complexity of locating boundary features and why surveyors are used in legal disputes - this would probably have been a better one to pick: http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/boundary-problems/work-out-where-bdy.html

Anyway, given what we have established, I think we can say the following:
- The neighbour has probably encroached on your relative's garden by assuming the boundary line is the edge of the path, and not the other two features it could be (the step-down or the hedge/pole). 
- Non-expert consensus opinion (well, ~3-4 of us so far) is that your neighbour has got it wrong, and that one of the other two features is more likely to mark the boundary. 
- A friendly discussion is the best opportunity for solving this problem. You may wish to have a survey report at this stage or not. It's probably not necessary in the very first instance.
- If discussion doesn't work, the next best approach would be mediation, probably a jointly-appointed surveyor and/or mediator.
- If that is not going to work, then your relative has to decide if they want to go legal. Often going legal is not worth it for a matter of a few inches, as there are significant costs involved (4-5 figures depending on the type of dispute, plus the hassle and the dispute being on record in a future sale). Legal insurance could support your relative if they have it, of course.
- This looks like a case that is a matter of a few inches, but it is aggravated by the effect on the path. Because the path is not constrained on one side, the 'backing down' approach would be to move the slabs away from the new fence a few inches. It's not remotely hard for someone fit. I'm not recommending it, but it's an option.
- Personally, I would fight the encroachment, but this is a personal decision because it will all depend on your relative's resources and situation. 

I hope all this has helped so far, at least to frame your thinking, and thanks for bearing with all the questions. I suppose it's now probably time to reflect on the cost/benefits of these various decisions, have that conversation with the neighbour and see where it goes. 

Thank you so much for all your help and advice with this. Will try and speak to the neighbour initially, and go from there  

brianposter

Two points. One, Are there similar houses nearby and where are their boundaries ?

                   Two, I thought the first thing one did in this sort of dispute is to ask the council.

jonboy1972

Hi,

I've got a shared back garden boundary with my neighbour and it's actually my neighbour who informed me that it is shared. It was a 4 foot fence but over time it got overtook by a hedge growing around it. My neighbour has now removed the hedge and fence so there is now no boundary marking at all. Are they allowed to do this without discussing with myself?