Dealing with Financial Ombudsman

Ortives

Just wondering if the information I have been given by FO is correct as it seems absurd.

My former bank closed my account a year ago. Their only reason for doing so was so that I wouldn't receive interest on an ISA I had held with them for almost five years as it wouldn't have been open for long enough.

I raised a complaint about this at the time. FO ruled that the bank were entitled to close the ISA for whatever reason they wanted and that it was simply unfortunate that I had £20K in the bank's pocket for almost five years and that only the bank had profited from it. FO ruled that the initial deposit of £20K would be returned to me via a method of my choosing upon closure of the ISA.

The bank also told me that it would be up to me how I would receive the money and that, if I didn't instruct them how to pay me the money in the ISA, they would send a cheque by default. I instructed the bank to pay me the money via bank transfer and provided them with details of the account I wanted the money paid into.

The bank claim to have defied my instructions to pay me via bank transfer because they 'preferred to send a cheque'. To make matters worse, I never received the cheque and the bank have refused to either issue a new one or pay me via another method. They also seem to have defied FO's ruling when I complained about the closure as FO ruled that the £20K would be returned to me via a method of my choosing.

I contacted FO and informed them that the bank had defied their previous instructions. I was told that, if a bank doesn't follow a decision made by FO, a new complaint has to be filed with FO about the bank's failure to comply as this is considered a new complaint.

I waited ten months for a decision to be made. FO got back to me last week and told me the following:

1. It is entirely my fault that I don't have the money as the bank gave me two months notice that the account was being closed. Therefore I had plenty of time to either withdraw the funds or use an account switching service

This is incorrect. Despite the fact that the bank were closing it, I was still liable to pay what I believe was a 12.5% fee of £2,500 for making an early withdrawal before the account was closed. The bank were unwilling to waive this, so obviously it made sense to wait for the account to be closed and have £20,000 transferred to me rather than getting £17,500 straight away.

Also, an account switching service was not available for the ISA. I don't know if this is standard throughout the banking industry, but it certainly makes sense. Why would another bank agree to take over a customer's 5 year ISA with a large interest payout when there is only a month left until it matures?

2. It's my own fault that they sent a cheque as I chose not to provide the bank with an alternative payment method.

This is incorrect as I did provide the bank with an alternative payment method.

I contacted FO about the issue, pointing out to them that they have made a decision based on false assumptions as an account switching service was not available for the ISA, a withdrawal was only possible with a hefty fee and I had provided the bank with an alternative payment method.

I had a response back and it became clear that the ombudsman who made the decision had not looked at the complaint properly as they assumed I was complaining about money in a savings account (£0 as I used an account switching service for that...) and not the money in the ISA. She also clearly ignored the evidence I attached as I sent in proof that I instructed the bank to pay the money from the ISA into the same account I had switched my savings account to.

I have been told that, despite the fact that the complaint I raised with FO ten months ago was about an ISA, I will have to raise the complaint with them again as the ombudsman falsely assumed I was complaining about a savings account. It is therefore considered a separate issue. Apparently once a decision has been made that is it and, even though it is clear that the ombudsman has made major mistake, nothing can be done as the decision is final.

Thrugelmir

Ortives said:

2. It's my own fault that they sent a cheque as I chose not to provide the bank with an alternative payment method.

This is incorrect as I did provide the bank with an alternative payment method.

Not within your remit to tell a business how to run their business. Must say that a complaint of this nature is a waste of peoples very valuable and costly time. Not what the complaints system was designed for. 

Ortives

Thrugelmir said:

Ortives said:

2. It's my own fault that they sent a cheque as I chose not to provide the bank with an alternative payment method.

This is incorrect as I did provide the bank with an alternative payment method.

Not within your remit to tell a business how to run their business. Must say that a complaint of this nature is a waste of peoples very valuable and costly time. Not what the complaints system was designed for. 

Huh? Something tells me you didn't bother reading anything.

A bank stole £20K from me and believe it is now their money. What do you think the complaints system is designed for? Minimum of £100,000?

dunstonh

 They also seem to have defied FO's ruling when I complained about the closure as FO ruled that the £20K would be returned to me via a method of my choosing.

Dealing with the lesser issues first...  

The method of payment is really an irrelevance.   Whilst the FOS may have said "of your choosing", a cheque does give the bank a clearer audit trail.   If sending via bank transfer they often need to obtain a copy bank statement or void cheque to validate that the account belongs to you before sending the money.  This creates delay and they really want it off their desk. So, a cheque solves that for them.

I contacted FO and informed them that the bank had defied their previous instructions. I was told that, if a bank doesn't follow a decision made by FO, a new complaint has to be filed with FO about the bank's failure to comply as this is considered a new complaint.

The bank is complying with the requirement set by the FOS.   Method of payment is not the issue that the FOS was ruling on.  The FOS wants you to get your £20k back.  It doesnt give two hoots whether its bank transfer or cheque.

1. It is entirely my fault that I don't have the money as the bank gave me two months notice that the account was being closed. Therefore I had plenty of time to either withdraw the funds or use an account switching service

This is incorrect. Despite the fact that the bank were closing it, I was still liable to pay what I believe was a 12.5% fee of £2,500 for making an early withdrawal before the account was closed. The bank were unwilling to waive this, so obviously it made sense to wait for the account to be closed and have £20,000 transferred to me rather than getting £17,500 straight away.

Whilst you believe it was still chargeable, it is unlikely. When a bank withdraws an account, it usually waives any published fee that would normally exist.   If this was the basis of the complaint, then then it would be covered in the response with the either the bank (or FOS) saying that it was or was not charged.  So, either your point was missed or you never raised that point in a way that was identified as being the reason for complaint.

Also, an account switching service was not available for the ISA. I don't know if this is standard throughout the banking industry, but it certainly makes sense. Why would another bank agree to take over a customer's 5 year ISA with a large interest payout when there is only a month left until it matures?

ISAs can be transferred very easily.      However, the new ISA manager doesnt take on the terms of the old ISA.    You seem to have misunderstood that point.

I contacted FO about the issue, pointing out to them that they have made a decision based on false assumptions as an account switching service was not available for the ISA, a withdrawal was only possible with a hefty fee and I had provided the bank with an alternative payment method.

I had a response back and it became clear that the ombudsman who made the decision had not looked at the complaint properly as they assumed I was complaining about money in a savings account (£0 as I used an account switching service for that...) and not the money in the ISA. She also clearly ignored the evidence I attached as I sent in proof that I instructed the bank to pay the money from the ISA into the same account I had switched my savings account to.

You have made the false assumption that an account switching service is not available when it is (although your understanding of what switching means is likely the reason).   And as the bank are returning the £20k, there clearly is not a £2,500 fee.  The payment method is an irrelevance.

I have been told that, despite the fact that the complaint I raised with FO ten months ago was about an ISA, I will have to raise the complaint with them again as the ombudsman falsely assumed I was complaining about a savings account. It is therefore considered a separate issue. Apparently once a decision has been made that is it and, even though it is clear that the ombudsman has made major mistake, nothing can be done as the decision is final.

An adjudicator decision can be appealed.  An ombudsman decision is final in respect of that service (technically you can go for a judicial review but there is no point)

Have you got the DRN number so we can look at the decision online (ombudsman decisions are published online).

Ortives

dunstonh said:

 They also seem to have defied FO's ruling when I complained about the closure as FO ruled that the £20K would be returned to me via a method of my choosing.

Dealing with the lesser issues first...  

The method of payment is really an irrelevance.   Whilst the FOS may have said "of your choosing", a cheque does give the bank a clearer audit trail.   If sending via bank transfer they often need to obtain a copy bank statement or void cheque to validate that the account belongs to you before sending the money.  This creates delay and they really want it off their desk. So, a cheque solves that for them.

I contacted FO and informed them that the bank had defied their previous instructions. I was told that, if a bank doesn't follow a decision made by FO, a new complaint has to be filed with FO about the bank's failure to comply as this is considered a new complaint.

The bank is complying with the requirement set by the FOS.   Method of payment is not the issue that the FOS was ruling on.  The FOS wants you to get your £20k back.  It doesnt give two hoots whether its bank transfer or cheque.

1. It is entirely my fault that I don't have the money as the bank gave me two months notice that the account was being closed. Therefore I had plenty of time to either withdraw the funds or use an account switching service

This is incorrect. Despite the fact that the bank were closing it, I was still liable to pay what I believe was a 12.5% fee of £2,500 for making an early withdrawal before the account was closed. The bank were unwilling to waive this, so obviously it made sense to wait for the account to be closed and have £20,000 transferred to me rather than getting £17,500 straight away.

Whilst you believe it was still chargeable, it is unlikely. When a bank withdraws an account, it usually waives any published fee that would normally exist.   If this was the basis of the complaint, then then it would be covered in the response with the either the bank (or FOS) saying that it was or was not charged.  So, either your point was missed or you never raised that point in a way that was identified as being the reason for complaint.

Also, an account switching service was not available for the ISA. I don't know if this is standard throughout the banking industry, but it certainly makes sense. Why would another bank agree to take over a customer's 5 year ISA with a large interest payout when there is only a month left until it matures?

ISAs can be transferred very easily.      However, the new ISA manager doesnt take on the terms of the old ISA.    You seem to have misunderstood that point.

I contacted FO about the issue, pointing out to them that they have made a decision based on false assumptions as an account switching service was not available for the ISA, a withdrawal was only possible with a hefty fee and I had provided the bank with an alternative payment method.

I had a response back and it became clear that the ombudsman who made the decision had not looked at the complaint properly as they assumed I was complaining about money in a savings account (£0 as I used an account switching service for that...) and not the money in the ISA. She also clearly ignored the evidence I attached as I sent in proof that I instructed the bank to pay the money from the ISA into the same account I had switched my savings account to.

You have made the false assumption that an account switching service is not available when it is (although your understanding of what switching means is likely the reason).   And as the bank are returning the £20k, there clearly is not a £2,500 fee.  The payment method is an irrelevance.

I have been told that, despite the fact that the complaint I raised with FO ten months ago was about an ISA, I will have to raise the complaint with them again as the ombudsman falsely assumed I was complaining about a savings account. It is therefore considered a separate issue. Apparently once a decision has been made that is it and, even though it is clear that the ombudsman has made major mistake, nothing can be done as the decision is final.

An adjudicator decision can be appealed.  An ombudsman decision is final in respect of that service (technically you can go for a judicial review but there is no point)

Have you got the DRN number so we can look at the decision online (ombudsman decisions are published online).

In regards to the cheque, the terms the bank gave me upon closure of the account made it crystal clear that it was my choice as to how I was paid. Cheque was the default option if I did not provide them with a payment method. Even FO have agreed with this, but said it was my own fault for not providing the bank with my chosen payment method, despite the fact that I did.

To be clear, account switching service was 100% not possible for the ISA. I tried myself and was not able to do it. I asked the bank about it and they said that account switching service was not available. Of course they may have lied to me, but that would not be my fault.

Providing the DRN is useless. The complaint you will be reading will not be the complaint I raised with FO. The ombudsman has adjusted my complaint to something other than the complaint I raised. The decision letter summarises my complaint as being about a balance in a savings account, which I could and did use account switching for, which I supposedly made no effort to withdraw. The decision letter is a response to a fictional complaint.

I am wondering if FO are correct that I have to raise the complaint with them again, rather than it being looked at again under the knowledge that account switching could not be used for the ISA.

Ed-1

Ortives said:

dunstonh said:

 They also seem to have defied FO's ruling when I complained about the closure as FO ruled that the £20K would be returned to me via a method of my choosing.

Dealing with the lesser issues first...  

The method of payment is really an irrelevance.   Whilst the FOS may have said "of your choosing", a cheque does give the bank a clearer audit trail.   If sending via bank transfer they often need to obtain a copy bank statement or void cheque to validate that the account belongs to you before sending the money.  This creates delay and they really want it off their desk. So, a cheque solves that for them.

I contacted FO and informed them that the bank had defied their previous instructions. I was told that, if a bank doesn't follow a decision made by FO, a new complaint has to be filed with FO about the bank's failure to comply as this is considered a new complaint.

The bank is complying with the requirement set by the FOS.   Method of payment is not the issue that the FOS was ruling on.  The FOS wants you to get your £20k back.  It doesnt give two hoots whether its bank transfer or cheque.

1. It is entirely my fault that I don't have the money as the bank gave me two months notice that the account was being closed. Therefore I had plenty of time to either withdraw the funds or use an account switching service

This is incorrect. Despite the fact that the bank were closing it, I was still liable to pay what I believe was a 12.5% fee of £2,500 for making an early withdrawal before the account was closed. The bank were unwilling to waive this, so obviously it made sense to wait for the account to be closed and have £20,000 transferred to me rather than getting £17,500 straight away.

Whilst you believe it was still chargeable, it is unlikely. When a bank withdraws an account, it usually waives any published fee that would normally exist.   If this was the basis of the complaint, then then it would be covered in the response with the either the bank (or FOS) saying that it was or was not charged.  So, either your point was missed or you never raised that point in a way that was identified as being the reason for complaint.

Also, an account switching service was not available for the ISA. I don't know if this is standard throughout the banking industry, but it certainly makes sense. Why would another bank agree to take over a customer's 5 year ISA with a large interest payout when there is only a month left until it matures?

ISAs can be transferred very easily.      However, the new ISA manager doesnt take on the terms of the old ISA.    You seem to have misunderstood that point.

I contacted FO about the issue, pointing out to them that they have made a decision based on false assumptions as an account switching service was not available for the ISA, a withdrawal was only possible with a hefty fee and I had provided the bank with an alternative payment method.

I had a response back and it became clear that the ombudsman who made the decision had not looked at the complaint properly as they assumed I was complaining about money in a savings account (£0 as I used an account switching service for that...) and not the money in the ISA. She also clearly ignored the evidence I attached as I sent in proof that I instructed the bank to pay the money from the ISA into the same account I had switched my savings account to.

You have made the false assumption that an account switching service is not available when it is (although your understanding of what switching means is likely the reason).   And as the bank are returning the £20k, there clearly is not a £2,500 fee.  The payment method is an irrelevance.

I have been told that, despite the fact that the complaint I raised with FO ten months ago was about an ISA, I will have to raise the complaint with them again as the ombudsman falsely assumed I was complaining about a savings account. It is therefore considered a separate issue. Apparently once a decision has been made that is it and, even though it is clear that the ombudsman has made major mistake, nothing can be done as the decision is final.

An adjudicator decision can be appealed.  An ombudsman decision is final in respect of that service (technically you can go for a judicial review but there is no point)

Have you got the DRN number so we can look at the decision online (ombudsman decisions are published online).

In regards to the cheque, the terms the bank gave me upon closure of the account made it crystal clear that it was my choice as to how I was paid. Cheque was the default option if I did not provide them with a payment method. Even FO have agreed with this, but said it was my own fault for not providing the bank with my chosen payment method, despite the fact that I did.

To be clear, account switching service was 100% not possible for the ISA. I tried myself and was not able to do it. I asked the bank about it and they said that account switching service was not available. Of course they may have lied to me, but that would not be my fault.

Providing the DRN is useless. The complaint you will be reading will not be the complaint I raised with FO. The ombudsman has adjusted my complaint to something other than the complaint I raised. The decision letter summarises my complaint as being about a balance in a savings account, which I could and did use account switching for, which I supposedly made no effort to withdraw. The decision letter is a response to a fictional complaint.

I am wondering if FO are correct that I have to raise the complaint with them again, rather than it being looked at again under the knowledge that account switching could not be used for the ISA.

The account SWITCH service ONLY applies to CURRENT accounts, not savings accounts including ISAs (individual saving accounts). You can use the ISA TRANSFER process to transfer ISA subscriptions from one provider to another though.

Ortives

Ed-1 said:

Ortives said:

dunstonh said:

 They also seem to have defied FO's ruling when I complained about the closure as FO ruled that the £20K would be returned to me via a method of my choosing.

Dealing with the lesser issues first...  

The method of payment is really an irrelevance.   Whilst the FOS may have said "of your choosing", a cheque does give the bank a clearer audit trail.   If sending via bank transfer they often need to obtain a copy bank statement or void cheque to validate that the account belongs to you before sending the money.  This creates delay and they really want it off their desk. So, a cheque solves that for them.

I contacted FO and informed them that the bank had defied their previous instructions. I was told that, if a bank doesn't follow a decision made by FO, a new complaint has to be filed with FO about the bank's failure to comply as this is considered a new complaint.

The bank is complying with the requirement set by the FOS.   Method of payment is not the issue that the FOS was ruling on.  The FOS wants you to get your £20k back.  It doesnt give two hoots whether its bank transfer or cheque.

1. It is entirely my fault that I don't have the money as the bank gave me two months notice that the account was being closed. Therefore I had plenty of time to either withdraw the funds or use an account switching service

This is incorrect. Despite the fact that the bank were closing it, I was still liable to pay what I believe was a 12.5% fee of £2,500 for making an early withdrawal before the account was closed. The bank were unwilling to waive this, so obviously it made sense to wait for the account to be closed and have £20,000 transferred to me rather than getting £17,500 straight away.

Whilst you believe it was still chargeable, it is unlikely. When a bank withdraws an account, it usually waives any published fee that would normally exist.   If this was the basis of the complaint, then then it would be covered in the response with the either the bank (or FOS) saying that it was or was not charged.  So, either your point was missed or you never raised that point in a way that was identified as being the reason for complaint.

Also, an account switching service was not available for the ISA. I don't know if this is standard throughout the banking industry, but it certainly makes sense. Why would another bank agree to take over a customer's 5 year ISA with a large interest payout when there is only a month left until it matures?

ISAs can be transferred very easily.      However, the new ISA manager doesnt take on the terms of the old ISA.    You seem to have misunderstood that point.

I contacted FO about the issue, pointing out to them that they have made a decision based on false assumptions as an account switching service was not available for the ISA, a withdrawal was only possible with a hefty fee and I had provided the bank with an alternative payment method.

I had a response back and it became clear that the ombudsman who made the decision had not looked at the complaint properly as they assumed I was complaining about money in a savings account (£0 as I used an account switching service for that...) and not the money in the ISA. She also clearly ignored the evidence I attached as I sent in proof that I instructed the bank to pay the money from the ISA into the same account I had switched my savings account to.

You have made the false assumption that an account switching service is not available when it is (although your understanding of what switching means is likely the reason).   And as the bank are returning the £20k, there clearly is not a £2,500 fee.  The payment method is an irrelevance.

I have been told that, despite the fact that the complaint I raised with FO ten months ago was about an ISA, I will have to raise the complaint with them again as the ombudsman falsely assumed I was complaining about a savings account. It is therefore considered a separate issue. Apparently once a decision has been made that is it and, even though it is clear that the ombudsman has made major mistake, nothing can be done as the decision is final.

An adjudicator decision can be appealed.  An ombudsman decision is final in respect of that service (technically you can go for a judicial review but there is no point)

Have you got the DRN number so we can look at the decision online (ombudsman decisions are published online).

In regards to the cheque, the terms the bank gave me upon closure of the account made it crystal clear that it was my choice as to how I was paid. Cheque was the default option if I did not provide them with a payment method. Even FO have agreed with this, but said it was my own fault for not providing the bank with my chosen payment method, despite the fact that I did.

To be clear, account switching service was 100% not possible for the ISA. I tried myself and was not able to do it. I asked the bank about it and they said that account switching service was not available. Of course they may have lied to me, but that would not be my fault.

Providing the DRN is useless. The complaint you will be reading will not be the complaint I raised with FO. The ombudsman has adjusted my complaint to something other than the complaint I raised. The decision letter summarises my complaint as being about a balance in a savings account, which I could and did use account switching for, which I supposedly made no effort to withdraw. The decision letter is a response to a fictional complaint.

I am wondering if FO are correct that I have to raise the complaint with them again, rather than it being looked at again under the knowledge that account switching could not be used for the ISA.

The account SWITCH service ONLY applies to CURRENT accounts, not savings accounts including ISAs (individual saving accounts). You can use the ISA TRANSFER process to transfer ISA subscriptions from one provider to another though.

OK. Thanks.

The main thing I need an answer on here though is if FO are correct in saying that I need to raise a brand new complaint with them because the ombudsman I was originally assigned didn't read the complaint, made up a complaint of their own and then made a decision based on the complaint they created themselves.

Logic would suggest that I should be able to complain about the ombudsman and have a new one assigned (it's plain as day that the ombudsman made a huge mistake and FO have practically admitted as much). But, from speaking to FO, I apparently have to raise the complaint again and hope that I get an ombudsman who can be bothered to read this time. Meanwhile complaining about the one who didn't bother reading my initial complaint.

If I have to start over, I suspect I will be waiting another 10 months at best.

jonnygee2

The main thing I need an answer on here though is if FO are correct in saying that I need to raise a brand new complaint with them because the ombudsman I was originally assigned didn't read the complaint, made up a complaint of their own and then made a decision based on the complaint they created themselves.

There is a review process built into the complaints, when they gave you their verdict they should have given you information about what to do if you don't accept the verdict and the possibility of an appeal. 

FOS have been making some very dodgy decisions recently and they do seem to have a problem with skill levels in their staff. 

I think you should ask to appeal the original ombudsman decision. I don't think they can force them to consider an appeal, but there is definitely an appeals process which for some reason you aren't being given access to.

dunstonh

FOS have been making some very dodgy decisions recently and they do seem to have a problem with skill levels in their staff.

No more than the usual level and the the ability to appeal adjudicator decisions is available for both sides.   An ombudsman then looks as the case.     On simple cases like this, an ombudsman really shouldn't be needed and adjudicator decision would be expected to be correct.       Most adjudicator decisions on simple stuff is still measured in weeks or a low number of months.  The OP says 10 months (as well as referring to his case handler as an ombudsman - only the appeals level are ombudsman)  So, that suggests he has already gone through the adjudicator stage and disagreed and has now gone through the ombudsman appeal as well.

eskbanker

This story seems remarkably close to one told in previous threads, under other freshly-created usernames:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6025552/halifax-opportunistically-stealing-money/p1
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6061532/whats-the-point-of-financial-ombudsman/p1

which in turn seem remarkably close to one on which FOS published their decision at:
https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/files/253514/DRN0359598.pdf

OP will presumably deny they're the same though....

Ortives

dunstonh said:

FOS have been making some very dodgy decisions recently and they do seem to have a problem with skill levels in their staff.

No more than the usual level and the the ability to appeal adjudicator decisions is available for both sides.   An ombudsman then looks as the case.     On simple cases like this, an ombudsman really shouldn't be needed and adjudicator decision would be expected to be correct.       Most adjudicator decisions on simple stuff is still measured in weeks or a low number of months.  The OP says 10 months (as well as referring to his case handler as an ombudsman - only the appeals level are ombudsman)  So, that suggests he has already gone through the adjudicator stage and disagreed and has now gone through the ombudsman appeal as well.

I don't recall the case manager ever making a decision on this. I have one on another case that did and, much like the ombudsman I was assigned on this one did, the case manager completely ignored everything I said and rejected my complaint while pretending my complaint was about how wonderful my bank were. Obviously that prompted an immediate complaint about her behaviour. 2-3 weeks later I was informed that she no longer worked at FO and I was assigned a new case manager, who never made a decision and passed it straight on to an ombudsman.

All the new case manager did was verify what my actual complaint was as the one I raised was an actual complaint, whereas the one the initial case manager had drafted was a story of praise.