Contentious Discussion

ToxicWomble

we were having a discussion at work about Captain Tom etc etc when the point was raised that strictly speaking according to established military decorum, an army officer of the rank of Captain and below, should not be using their rank as part of their title. That “privilege” is afforded to Major and above.
IGNORING all the good he has done I.e IF this was any other situation/scenario what do you think

Silvertabby

Strictly speaking, you are right.  However, I think we can make an exception in this case ! 

Undervalued

I think this is because the actual rank of Captain in the Royal Navy is a good few steps higher than an Army Captain. Not to be confused in the navy with "The Captain" of a particular ship who, although in command, could be several ranks junior to a Captain!

So an ex army officer, calling himself Captain in civilian life, was considered to be trying to give the impression of a higher status than he deserved!

Silvertabby

Not quite - it's just that only senior officers have the privilege of using their rank in civvie street.  That's Major (and above) in the Army,  and the equivalent ranks of Squadron Leader in the RAF and Lieutenant Commander in the RN. 

There's nothing to say that Captain Tom has used his rank before now - it appears to be something the media have picked up and run with.

Undervalued

Silvertabby said:

Not quite - it's just that only senior officers have the privilege of using their rank in civvie street.  That's Major (and above) in the Army,  and the equivalent ranks of Squadron Leader in the RAF and Lieutenant Commander in the RN. 

There's nothing to say that Captain Tom has used his rank before now - it appears to be something the media have picked up and run with.

Has that changed at some point or become a formal rule in the relatively recent past? 

At one time ex army Captains using the rank in civilian life wasn't uncommon, although it was frowned upon by many for the reasons I outlined above. It crops up quite often in pre WW2 literature . Captain Hastings, Hercule Poirot's slightly dim companion is quite a good example in many Agatha Christie stories.

Silvertabby

Undervalued said:

Silvertabby said:

Not quite - it's just that only senior officers have the privilege of using their rank in civvie street.  That's Major (and above) in the Army,  and the equivalent ranks of Squadron Leader in the RAF and Lieutenant Commander in the RN. 

There's nothing to say that Captain Tom has used his rank before now - it appears to be something the media have picked up and run with.

Has that changed at some point or become a formal rule in the relatively recent past? 

At one time ex army Captains using the rank in civilian life wasn't uncommon, although it was frowned upon by many for the reasons I outlined above. It crops up quite often in pre WW2 literature . Captain Hastings, Hercule Poirot's slightly dim companion is quite a good example in many Agatha Christie stories.

It was certainly the case during my own (NCO) service from the mid 1970s, but may well have been as you say in earlier times.  

Undervalued

A little bit of Googling suggests that it is a question of "good form" rather than law. As you say nowadays anything below Major is rather frowned upon but that is fairly recent. A "good" example in high society relatively recently was Princess Anne's former husband, Captain Mark Philips who was army then ex-army.

A couple of fairly recent entries from the London Gazette.....

"Capt XXXXXXXX relinquishes his commission on ceasing to be employed, 12 Nov 1919 and retains the rank of Capt."

"Lt YYYYYYYYY relinquishes his commission on ceasing to be employed, !2 Nov 1919 and is granted the rank of Captain"

"Lt ZZZZZZZZZZ relinquishes his commission on ceasing to be employed, !2 Nov 1919 and retains the rank of Lieutenant."

It is certainly interesting that when Captains who insist on using the title crop up in literature, film or television they are often self important / pompous and / or a bit on the thick side. Captain Peacock, Captain Mainwaring etc!

ToxicWomble

Glad the thread hasn’t got totally derailed - so thanks for that.
I was lead to believe as above that persons using Captain were believed to be on the “pretentious” side.
It would be interesting to find where the use of Captain for this gentleman came from -  but am slightly surprised that no one else (to my knowledge) has picked up on this slight  impropriety - possibly no one dares.
I was in two minds about this thread and was expecting some serious flaming, so thanks again for keeping the discussion on topic and civil.

JReacher1

I don't think anyone really cares that much. 
If a bloke who is 99 years old and is raising millions for the NHS wants to refer to himself by the rank he earned in WW2 then I am not going to complain.

It does appear that he has a big garden though so I assume he is reasonably affluent himself.  

Silvertabby

JReacher1 said:

I don't think anyone really cares that much. 
If a bloke who is 99 years old and is raising millions for the NHS wants to refer to himself by the rank he earned in WW2 then I am not going to complain.

It does appear that he has a big garden though so I assume he is reasonably affluent himself.  

But does he refer to himself as Captain?  Suspect that it's the media who started this, after finding that he was a WW2 veteran.  They would have no doubt referred to him as 'Sgt Tom' had that been the case.

Undervalued

Silvertabby said:

JReacher1 said:

I don't think anyone really cares that much. 
If a bloke who is 99 years old and is raising millions for the NHS wants to refer to himself by the rank he earned in WW2 then I am not going to complain.

It does appear that he has a big garden though so I assume he is reasonably affluent himself.  

But does he refer to himself as Captain?  Suspect that it's the media who started this, after finding that he was a WW2 veteran.  They would have no doubt referred to him as 'Sgt Tom' had that been the case.

That may well be the case. Plus, even if it is a title he chooses to use, it goes back to a time 60 to 70 years ago when it would be more common and accepted than it would be for a Captain who has left the army recently.