Can we furlough someone on ssp

Mrsleonard

We have be ordered to close business from march 20th. One employee was on SSP (not Corona virus related) at this time. They have since had another sick note. This expired April 15th, no contact from employee! But can we furlough instead of SSP as we no longer have any income.

gary83

once their SSP has ended you can choose to furlough them, but you have to have their agreement prior to the furlough starting, so you can’t do it without talking to them. 

Jeremy535897

"If your employee is self-isolating or on sick leave

If your employee is on sick leave or self-isolating as a result of Coronavirus, they’ll be able to get Statutory Sick Pay, subject to other eligibility conditions applying. The Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme is not intended for short-term absences from work due to sickness, and there is a 3 week minimum furlough period.

Short term illness/ self-isolation should not be a consideration in deciding whether to furlough an employee. If, however, employers want to furlough employees for business reasons and they are currently off sick, they are eligible to do so, as with other employees. In these cases, the employee should no longer receive sick pay and would be classified as a furloughed employee.

Employers are also entitled to furlough employees who are being shielded or off on long-term sick leave. It is up to employers to decide whether to furlough these employees. You can claim back from both the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme and the SSP rebate scheme for the same employee but not for the same period of time. When an employee is on furlough, you can only reclaim expenditure through the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme, and not the SSP rebate scheme. If a non-furloughed employee becomes ill, needs to self-isolate or be shielded, then you might qualify for the SSP rebate scheme, enabling you to claim up to two weeks of SSP per employee."

gary83

Either way the sick note which predates Corona virus expired 2 days ago, by not talking to the employer the employee isn’t really helping anyone.

calcotti

Confused guidance on this issue.
The guidance previously said that someone on SSP could not be furloughed. However the current employer guidance says
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-for-wage-costs-through-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme

Short term illness/ self-isolation should not be a consideration in deciding whether to furlough an employee. If, however, employers want to furlough employees for business reasons and they are currently off sick, they are eligible to do so, as with other employees. In these cases, the employee should no longer receive sick pay and would be classified as a furloughed employee.
Employers are also entitled to furlough employees who are being shielded or off on long-term sick leave. It is up to employers to decide whether to furlough these employees. You can claim back from both the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme and the SSP rebate scheme for the same employee but not for the same period of time. When an employee is on furlough, you can only reclaim expenditure through the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme, and not the SSP rebate scheme. If a non-furloughed employee becomes ill, needs to self-isolate or be shielded, then you might qualify for the SSP rebate scheme, enabling you to claim up to two weeks of SSP per employee.

The employee guidance https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-you-could-be-l-by-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme says

If you’re on sick leave or self-isolating because of coronavirus (COVID-19), speak to your employer about whether you’re eligible to be furloughed – you should get Statutory Sick Pay (SSP) as a minimum while you are on sick leave or self isolating. Your employer can furlough you at any time- if they do, you will no longer receive sick pay, but should be treated as any other furloughed employee.

However the Treasury Direction which has just been issued says an employee on SSP cannot be furloughed https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/879484/200414_CJRS_DIRECTION_-_33_FINAL_Signed.pdf

Where Statutory Sick Pay is payable or liable to be payable in respect of an employee (whether or not a claim to Statutory Sick Pay is made) at the time when the instruction in paragraph 6.1(a) is given (“original SSP”), the period described in paragraph 6.1(b) in respect of the employee does not begin until the original SSP has ended (but any subsequent entitlement to Statutory Sick Pay by virtue of the employee becoming unfit for work again after the original SSP has ended must be disregarded).

Mrsleonard

We are in a difficult position. I've contacted her this morning saying we would like to furlough her! she has advised she has another sick note for three weeks (not seen yet) Can she be classed as long term sick as this is 8 weeks? We have no money coming in, yet have to find her SSP every week. 

gary83

Do the maths on what she’d get on SSP and what she’d get if she was furloughed, I’m assuming furloughed would be higher. use that maths to explain to her she’d be better off accepting your offer of furlough and see if you can get her agreement that way.

Jeremy535897

Referring to calcotti's post, I am struggling to understand quite what the Treasury Direction is saying, but I think the paragraph he quotes says that the 3 week minimum furlough period does not begin until after the SSP ends. It doesn't actually say you can't furlough them. Otherwise it would just say that a person on SSP cannot be furloughed. SSP can run for 28 weeks. If you amend her contract to pay her only 80% of her wages, and furlough her, and she agrees to both, how much more would you be paying her on furlough than under SSP? That is the risk if your furlough claim is denied. 

Mrsleonard

Gary83 I've already tried that approach when she gave us the last sick note. Yet still she's perfectly happy to continue on the SSP. But she would now be classed as long term sick so we could furlough her if she's in agreement! 

gary83

You have my sympathy in that case then, She sounds like a nightmare employee.

Mrsleonard

Jeremy535897
The amount would be maybe £5 per week difference so not a major amount in comparison.