Not able to work due to childcare - Can I get furloughed?

robbiez

neilmcl said:

gary83 said:

But the OPs employee does have work for them, he’s just unable to do it as he can’t get childcare, the OP has accepted that, I’m not sure why you’re still disagreeing with the current clear guidance.

I don't dispute this. I was merely responding to robbiez's assertion that "An employer can only furlough an employee if the business is suffering financially due to covid-19" which in reality and in practice is not the case as has been shown by the published guidelines.

I guess we wont agree on this as our interpretations seem to differ but we will all see in due course. I'll shall leave it there.

The published guideline state "It is designed to support employers whose operations have been severely affected by coronavirus".
To me, if a business operation is severely affected by coronavirus, I would take that to mean the business is suffering financially.
For any pub, restaurant, etc that has been severely affected by coronavirus, it is suffering financially.
The job retention scheme is designed to support employees of those businesses(among others) who otherwise would have been laid off.

Darwin9098

The above opposing arguments read to me as if the furlough scheme for this epidemic in the UK is there to protect the employer, yet leave the employee who has young children who cannot go to school at this time to fend for themselves. Once again I ask what the alternative is for people you find themselves in this situation?

gary83

Darwin9098 said:

The above opposing arguments read to me as if the furlough scheme for this epidemic in the UK is there to protect the employer, yet leave the employee who has young children who cannot go to school at this time to fend for themselves. Once again I ask what the alternative is for people you find themselves in this situation?

The furlough scheme is there to protect the employer, the government say that’s exactly what it’s for, unfortunately currently there’s absolutely no extra help for people with young children. The only thing to consider is Universal Credit

Darwin9098

neilmcl said:

robbiez said:

neilmcl said:

robbiez said:

littlegreenview said:

gary83 said:

you’d be entitled to furlough if due to a lack of work your company would otherwise make you redundant, childcare issues are irrelevant to the entitlement.

Not according to the TV programme last night. 

Martin is currently providing the wrong information, and shouldn't be.
An employer can only furlough an employee if the business is suffering financially due to covid-19.
If the business is not suffering and doesn't want to make staff redundant, they cannot just use the job retention scheme so you can look after your children. You would need to use your holiday entitlement or unpaid leave.

No, I'm afraid you are the one providing the wrong information. The Coronavirus job retention scheme is open to all employers who wish to furlough staff during these times. The priority for the government is get as many people to stay at home as possible and are acutely aware that this puts great pressures on employers.

How do you come to that conclusion?
The job retention scheme is available for all employers to consider, but that doesn't mean they will be eligible and doesn't mean any employee can be furloughed.
The information I have provided is backed by the Government and available on their website:
"If you and your employer both agree, your employer might be able to keep you on the payroll if they’re unable to operate or have no work for you to do because of coronavirus (COVID-19). "
"The Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme is a temporary scheme open to all UK employers for at least three months starting from 1 March 2020. It is designed to support employers whose operations have been severely affected by coronavirus (COVID-19)."

If a business is able to operate, has plenty of work and has not been severely affected by coronvirus, it is not eligible for the job retention scheme. That is based on the current information from the government. I am not saying it is right or wrong, and it may change, but I am saying that information is currently correct.

Please show me exactly where this is stated in black and white? 

Again I refer you to the quote ""Any UK employer with a UK bank account will be able to claim"
and
"Any UK organisation with employees can apply"

That's odd, because you listen back to the speech when the support was announced and it sounds very much like the scheme is aimed at the average working person and not the large scale employer?

littlegreenview

robbiez said:

The details of the scheme published yesterday appear less restrictive than what was said initially
www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-for-wage-costs-through-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme#employees-you-can-claim-for. Possibly it would be difficult to prove an intent to dismiss and possibly the government want to maximise the number kept in and paid through work rather than pushed unto the benefits system.

I agree, the terminology did change yesterday and was less restrictive. There is now a suggestion on the government site about those needing to look after children could discuss the possibility of being furloughed. However, I would read this to mean if a business was looking to furlough employees, they should furlough those who need it more. It definitely doesn't say you can ask to be furloughed if you need to look after children.

Robbiez - "those needing to look after children could discuss the possibility of being furloughed"

Also Robbiez - "doesn't say you can ask to be furloughed if you need to look after children"

That literally contradicts what you said. 

In this world, you don't get if you don't ask. My employer certainly wouldn't be offering this to me unless I asked. 
You keep making out like I have made the choice to stop working to stay at home and chill with my kids all day which is utter nonsense. I am a mother to 2 young children and chose to go to work to provide for them and not scrounge off the government. So if I now cannot work (because I have literally no other way of my children being cared for) do I not have every right to ask whether the government can help me?! 
Ok if they can't then they can't but worth an ask, don't you think? 
I am now in a state of limbo, with absolutely no income from my job and no benefits because I'm still employed. 

calcotti

robbiez said: I agree, the terminology did change yesterday and was less restrictive. There is now a suggestion on the government site about those needing to look after children could discuss the possibility of being furloughed. However, I would read this to mean if a business was looking to furlough employees, they should furlough those who need it more. It definitely doesn't say you can ask to be furloughed if you need to look after children.

Completely agree with that and certainly didn’t mean to suggest otherwise.

calcotti

neilmcl said: I was merely responding to robbiez's assertion that "An employer can only furlough an employee if the business is suffering financially due to covid-19" which in reality and in practice is not the case as has been shown by the published guidelines.

Robbie’s assertion was quoting the original (sketchy)  information published by the government on how the scheme would work. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-to-employers-and-businesses-about-covid-19/covid-19-support-for-businesses#support-for-businesses-through-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme

Under the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme, all UK employers with a PAYE scheme will be able to access support to continue paying part of their employees’ salary for those that would otherwise have been laid off during this crisis.

Obviously our understanding of what is proposed is changing as the government guidance changes.  Curiously the passage quoted above is still on the website despite the more detailed guidance published yesterday.

robbiez

littlegreenview said:

robbiez said:

The details of the scheme published yesterday appear less restrictive than what was said initially
www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-for-wage-costs-through-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme#employees-you-can-claim-for. Possibly it would be difficult to prove an intent to dismiss and possibly the government want to maximise the number kept in and paid through work rather than pushed unto the benefits system.

I agree, the terminology did change yesterday and was less restrictive. There is now a suggestion on the government site about those needing to look after children could discuss the possibility of being furloughed. However, I would read this to mean if a business was looking to furlough employees, they should furlough those who need it more. It definitely doesn't say you can ask to be furloughed if you need to look after children.

Robbiez - "those needing to look after children could discuss the possibility of being furloughed"

Also Robbiez - "doesn't say you can ask to be furloughed if you need to look after children"

That literally contradicts what you said. 

In this world, you don't get if you don't ask. My employer certainly wouldn't be offering this to me unless I asked. 
You keep making out like I have made the choice to stop working to stay at home and chill with my kids all day which is utter nonsense. I am a mother to 2 young children and chose to go to work to provide for them and not scrounge off the government. So if I now cannot work (because I have literally no other way of my children being cared for) do I not have every right to ask whether the government can help me?! 
Ok if they can't then they can't but worth an ask, don't you think? 
I am now in a state of limbo, with absolutely no income from my job and no benefits because I'm still employed. 

Apologies, I have amended my comment about asking your employer for clarity.
i am not suggesting you  want to stay at home and chill with the kids, absolutely not and apologies if that is the way it came across.
What I am saying is the government, thus far, has not created this scheme to help people in your position. I am not saying this is right. People in the media have given false hope to people like yourself by suggesting otherwise. This puts employer/employee relationships at risk as refusal to furlough will cause issues further down the line.

calcotti

littlegreenview said: I am now in a state of limbo, with absolutely no income from my job and no benefits because I'm still employed. 

This isn’t correct. Being employed does not prevent you claiming benefits. Unless you are excluded due to other circumstances you can claim Universal Credit which is for anyone on a low income and limited savings.

many people in employment receive Universal Credit.

be aware that if you currently receive Tax Credits (which are of course a benefit) a claim for UC will end you Tax Credits so do not consider changing without checking what you might be entitled to.