Bus / Train Insurance [Merged]

Stigy

Kiko4564 said:

If someone has a ticket for their journey, but they remain onboard after the train is taken out of service and runs Empty Coaching Stock (ECS) i.e. not in service, then will still be insured? A scenario where this would be relevant might include a derailment resulting in injury to that passenger, particularly if subsquently followed by a collision.

You gave an example above, then gave a scenario directly below it stating that the passenger doesn't have a ticket? If someone is overcaarried (which happens), they will be insured under the company's usual liability insurance all the time they're on railway property, and will usually be escorted out of the depot and put in a taxi to the nearest railway station or their home (depending on the situation). If somebody doesn't have a ticket, they'd still be insured under the company's public liability insurance, but I'm not sure any claim for compensation would necessarily succeed unless they could prove they were travelling legally. Having said that, nothing surprises me with the railway, as I've heard of fare evaders claiming (successfully) compensation after being injured whilst scaling fencing etc before to aid their escape.

55013

So why are you asking, Kiko? I suspect somebody has used the reason of not being insured to get you out of their hair at some point. The reality is that public liability insurance will still apply in any such situation, that is what it is for. In an ideal world everybody would do as they should and no claims would arise. Sometimes things go wrong or people make mistakes, public liability insurance covers any consequences of that.

That doesn’t mean you can do whatever you want regardless though. If the train is out of service, you shouldn’t be on it. If a ticket is required, you need to buy a ticket.

Kiko4564

55013 said:

So why are you asking, Kiko? I suspect somebody has used the reason of not being insured to get you out of their hair at some point. The reality is that public liability insurance will still apply in any such situation, that is what it is for. In an ideal world everybody would do as they should and no claims would arise. Sometimes things go wrong or people make mistakes, public liability insurance covers any consequences of that.

That doesn’t mean you can do whatever you want regardless though. If the train is out of service, you shouldn’t be on it. If a ticket is required, you need to buy a ticket.

The reason I'm asking is that I once managed to travel on a bus that wasn't in service, I was later told that the bus driver should not have let me on as he wasn't insured, as insurance doesn't apply to passengers on a bus that is not in service.

KeithP

Doesn't every motor vehicle need to have insurance covering passengers?

Kiko, try the Insurance board, or perhaps the Motoring board for a different perspective.

Or maybe google road traffic act passenger insurance.

55013

The idea of a passenger being insured or not is a red herring. If an incident occurred where the bus company was responsible for any injury to you, they would be liable to a claim. It doesn’t matter if the bus was in service or not (or, for that matter, if you had a ticket or not). They can insure against such an eventuality, this is known as public liability insurance.

”We’re not insured for that” is up there with “That’s against health and safety” in terms of made up claims by poorly informed staff. 

Johnmcl7

55013 said:

The idea of a passenger being insured or not is a red herring. If an incident occurred where the bus company was responsible for any injury to you, they would be liable to a claim. It doesn’t matter if the bus was in service or not (or, for that matter, if you had a ticket or not). They can insure against such an eventuality, this is known as public liability insurance.

”We’re not insured for that” is up there with “That’s against health and safety” in terms of made up claims by poorly informed staff. 

This is exactly it with no magical insurance or no insurance as the OP seems to believe, either the company is liable or they're not which will likely come down to negligence.  That said I think the chances of what the OP describes happening on a train are incredibly unlikely even if someone attempted to stay on the train, derailments/collisions are extremely rare and when they do occur they're usually at very low speed without injury.

I've not heard of it ever happening and the only similar situation I can think of is a situation where people were going into a DB Cargo depot area to get to a disused signal box, one of them went too near the 25k overhead line and suffered catastrophic injuries.  DB were ruled at fault because they hadn't adequately secured the site with gaps in the perimeter which people could simply walk through.

Kiko4564

If someone has a ticket for their journey, but they remain onboard after the bus is taken out of service and runs not in service, then will still be insured? A scenario where this would be relevant might include a road traffic collision, or a sudden emergency brake application.

Another scenario is where a person, who I shall call John, boards a bus without being in possession of a ticket. He intends on travelling on the bus without paying for a bus ticket unless challenged i.e. expressly asked, for the money. On boarding the bus, John just walks straight past the driver instead of stopping at the driver's cab, and buying a ticket from them. The bus driver decides not to pursue John for the fare and just decides to Forget It, Drive On. John has no other defence to his actions e.g. a sign stating that tickets could be bought from a conductor once onboard the bus, or the driver waving him onto the bus without first selling him a ticket. What if the bus, operated by a bus company  First Eastern Counties, is involved in an incident which results in John being injured e.g. the bus collides with another vehicle. He contacts First Eastern Counties to demand compensation for his resulting injuries, and has medical evidence as he attended the ED (Emergency Department) on the same day. Do First Eastern Counties have a come back as he didn't pay his fare before travelling? Will their insurance still payout if they claim on it? What would happen in practice? Thank you.

Car_54

How would John prove that he had been on the bus? Other than testimony from his fellow conspirators?

Kiko4564

Car_54 said:

How would John prove that he had been on the bus? Other than testimony from his fellow conspirators?

He might have filmed himself approaching the bus, switched the camera off just before boarding, and then taken a selfie once onboard. The Police might have turned up and taken his details. Or an Ambulance might have turned up and he might have given his details once being booked in at the Emergency Department.

pallyman

Hopefully the police arrest them and insurance sue him for Fraud and repayment of there costs with the buses cameras  used for evidence against them.