Mum died, father has advanced dementia, no power of attorney!

TonyMMM

Mojisola is correct  - it ceased to be a joint account immediately on the death of one of the account holders and became solely the account of the father. It doesn't fall within the mother's estate so her executors are not going to be able to access using that authority. Some banks might take a less strict view, but it sounds like you will have to wait until things go through the Court of Protection to get access to that.

Speak to the insurance companies - it may depend on whether your father is a sole named beneficiary of the policies, or if they might be payable to your mother's executor.

LaydeeLisa

Hi all - for info we have called the bank again.  Because Father is still alive - dementia or not - we cannot get the bank to pay the funeral bills or any other expenses without his express consent, which of course we cannot in good faith get as he has advanced dementia.  So we have to either open a new bank account and ask the insurers to pay into that - which may or may not be done - or we just wait for Deputyship to be assigned and sort everything then.  I don't think this is too unusual a predicament, but it certainly is a tricky one

xylophone

So we have to either open a new bank account

If you have cheques from the insurance company  drawn in  father's sole name, then they must be paid into an account in his name - you cannot open another account in his name until you have PoA.

xylophone

It seems to me that while it is true that money in a joint account passes by survivorship, when the PR declares assets for probate, half of that money would need to be shown as an asset of the deceased's estate.
That being the case, and particularly considering that the parties to the account were married, it seems rather hardline of the bank not to release at least half of the money in the account at date of death to pay for the funeral?

xylophone

If you have cheques from the insurance company 

If the insurance company wish to make a payment direct to a bank account, the same applies - if father is the sole beneficiary, the payment must be made to an account in his name.

LaydeeLisa

xylophone said:

If you have cheques from the insurance company 

If the insurance company wish to make a payment direct to a bank account, the same applies - if father is the sole beneficiary, the payment must be made to an account in his name.

The insurance company were happy enough to pay into any account (or just send a cheque) as my husband is executor and the insurance was relating to funeral expenses, but all in all we think we will just foot the bill and wait for Deputyship - it has been useful getting advice but we want things to be as simple as possible.  We will get insurances paid into the joint account and sit and wait until we have 'access' via the Deputyship to start sorting things out.  It does mean also paying for his care home fees for a few weeks, but we may consider an urgent request once we start to get those bills.  Such a mess without LPoA, which (sigh) I did mention to my husband many times, but they were not the sort of family to discuss these things      Ah well - onwards and upwards.  Thanks all!

xylophone

The insurance company were happy enough to pay into any account (or just send a cheque) as my husband is executor and the insurance was relating to funeral expenses,

The point is though that either the monies were due payable to a named beneficiary or they were payable to the estate. Thus, either they must be paid to the beneficiary or to the executor.

The experience of a relative who has recent experience is that where a policy had been gifted to  two beneficiaries, the insurance company was extremely strict - payment had to be made to those beneficiaries! One of them lived in Australia so that there was a long drawn out process where the Australian beneficiary had to be contacted and agree to how the policy proceeds were to be paid. She made an arrangement whereby she requested the company to pay her share to the other beneficiary (who was also the executor of the estate) so that he could arrange for a payment through her chosen currency dealer.

I am a little puzzled  by the reference to the insurance "relating to funeral expenses" - do you mean simply that mother took out the insurance on the basis that father could use it for funeral expenses, rather than that this is a policy designated to pay for a funeral?

Another thought, if the insurance company is indeed willing to pay the proceeds to any account at the executor's direction, could the proceeds simply be paid to the account of the funeral director?

LaydeeLisa

xylophone said:

The insurance company were happy enough to pay into any account (or just send a cheque) as my husband is executor and the insurance was relating to funeral expenses,

The point is though that either the monies were due payable to a named beneficiary or they were payable to the estate. Thus, either they must be paid to the beneficiary or to the executor.

The experience of a relative who has recent experience is that where a policy had been gifted to  two beneficiaries, the insurance company was extremely strict - payment had to be made to those beneficiaries! One of them lived in Australia so that there was a long drawn out process where the Australian beneficiary had to be contacted and agree to how the policy proceeds were to be paid. She made an arrangement whereby she requested the company to pay her share to the other beneficiary (who was also the executor of the estate) so that he could arrange for a payment through her chosen currency dealer.

I am a little puzzled  by the reference to the insurance "relating to funeral expenses" - do you mean simply that mother took out the insurance on the basis that father could use it for funeral expenses, rather than that this is a policy designated to pay for a funeral?

Another thought, if the insurance company is indeed willing to pay the proceeds to any account at the executor's direction, could the proceeds simply be paid to the account of the funeral director?

The insurance policies were in her name only and one was specifically a funeral related policy (the other was a Sun Life over-50's type deal).  We haven't contacted Sun Life as we have decided to keep it all in one place to keep things simple.  Speaking to the bank again and then the 1st insurance company it will become very disjointed if we have bits here and there, so we will just pay out ourselves and go through the Deputyship application.  There is no family dispute and it isn't complicated, just long-winded.  I appreciate everyone's help in getting this clearer in my mind.  We just want it done properly and as simply as possible to avoid any issues further down the line.

Keep_pedalling

The funeral policy will pay out pretty quickly and I am pretty sure those over 50s policies do as well as they don’t usually have named beneficiaries.

I_Love_comps

Have you a solicitor dealing with you mother -in-laws probate. If so I would have though they could authorise money for your mother- in-laws funeral.
When I was applying for Deputyship for my mom. I had to either pay it myself or ask the firms involved to wait for there money until I could access my mothers money. Any money I did pay out I reimbursed myself from mom's money, when deputyship came through