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Manager is Refusing Redundancy Pay - 13 Years Service

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Manager is Refusing Redundancy Pay - 13 Years Service

edited 26 February at 11:52AM in Redundancy & Redundancy Planning
10 replies 879 views
InsertHereInsertHere Forumite
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MoneySaving Newbie
edited 26 February at 11:52AM in Redundancy & Redundancy Planning
Hi All

I'm looking for some advice please. I've worked for my employer for 13 years. 5 years ago I got a promotion which saw me move from 60 hour a week shift work (paid weekly on payroll), to a senior supervisor role at 39 hours a week and more pay (salaried & paid monthly). I was told at the end of January that due to company restructuring, that my role was being made obsolete. During a consultation with my line manager this month, he stated that they're willing to offer me my old job back, but I'm not going to be offered redundancy. He said if I want redundancy I will have to appeal for it.

I just wondered where I stand with this. As far as I'm aware if an employer offers an alternative position within the company, it has to be similar to your current role. At the minute that isn't whats being offered to me - it is simply not a suitable alternative. I'm being offered a job working a minimum 60 hour week, shift work for less pay (circa £5-6k less). I'm currently contracted to 39 hours on more pay; effectively it's a demotion. Is this acceptable?

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. How would I go about appealing this decision? How likely am I to win if I appeal i.e. am I wrong and is his offer actually reasonable?
I've looked at ACAS and all the usual but I'm not getting a definitive answer. I'm relying on using this redundancy pay to re-train myself and switch careers, but without it I'm stuck.

Thank you

Replies

  • UndervaluedUndervalued Forumite
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    There is no right to be made redundant unless your post genuinely is redundant. Your right is not to be made redundant if it can be avoided! Anything else including so called "voluntary redundancy" (which technically doesn't exist) is actually a mutually agreed separation. The terms for that can be anything the parties agree but you have to receive legal advice before signing. 

    In paragraph 1 you say "offer my old job back" but in paragraph 2 you talk about "effectively it's a demotion" so I am struggling to understand exactly what is happening!

    What is an acceptable alternative job, rather than a forced redundancy, is complex!
  • KatrinaWavesKatrinaWaves Forumite
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    Old job as in the one they did before promotion, the 60hr one.
  • nicechapnicechap Forumite
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    Hi All

    I'm looking for some advice please. I've worked for my employer for 13 years. 5 years ago I got a promotion which saw me move from 60 hour a week shift work (paid weekly on payroll), to a senior supervisor role at 39 hours a week and more pay (salaried & paid monthly). I was told at the end of January that due to company restructuring, that my role was being made obsolete. During a consultation with my line manager this month, he stated that they're willing to offer me my old job back, but I'm not going to be offered redundancy. He said if I want redundancy I will have to appeal for it.

    I just wondered where I stand with this. As far as I'm aware if an employer offers an alternative position within the company, it has to be similar to your current role. At the minute that isn't whats being offered to me - it is simply not a suitable alternative. I'm being offered a job working a minimum 60 hour week, shift work for less pay (circa £5-6k less). I'm currently contracted to 39 hours on more pay; effectively it's a demotion. Is this acceptable?

    Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. How would I go about appealing this decision? How likely am I to win if I appeal i.e. am I wrong and is his offer actually reasonable?
    I've looked at ACAS and all the usual but I'm not getting a definitive answer. I'm relying on using this redundancy pay to re-train myself and switch careers, but without it I'm stuck.

    Thank you
    IMHO, being offered £5k less for 21hrs extra a week is not a suitable alternative - have you actually asked your union/ ACAS as opposed to just looking at info on the web.  

    Ultimately, it does not matter whether I or anyone here thinks its suitable or not, only you can make the initial choice, and then, only an Employment Tribunal can give you a definitive answer and that's always a gamble.
    Originally Posted by shortcrust
    "Contact the Ministry of Fairness....If sufficient evidence of unfairness is discovered you’ll get an apology, a permanent contract with backdated benefits, a ‘Let’s Make it Fair!’ tshirt and mug, and those guilty of unfairness will be sent on a Fairness Awareness course."
  • InsertHereInsertHere Forumite
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    First Post
    MoneySaving Newbie
    There is no right to be made redundant unless your post genuinely is redundant. Your right is not to be made redundant if it can be avoided! Anything else including so called "voluntary redundancy" (which technically doesn't exist) is actually a mutually agreed separation. The terms for that can be anything the parties agree but you have to receive legal advice before signing. 

    In paragraph 1 you say "offer my old job back" but in paragraph 2 you talk about "effectively it's a demotion" so I am struggling to understand exactly what is happening!

    What is an acceptable alternative job, rather than a forced redundancy, is complex!
    Thanks for your reply and I'm sorry if my original post wasn't clear enough. To clarify:

    1) It is forced redundancy, my role is being made obsolete (there are 4 of us, all losing our positions).
    2) My manager is saying I'm not entitled to redundancy pay because he's offering me an alternative job. My issue is that the alternative job he is offering is my old position I had before my promotion which is more hours, less pay and a completely different shift pattern. I believe this isn't a 'suitable alternative' as it is nothing like my current role. I just wanted some external opinions on the situation. I'm obviously going to be biased that this 'isn't fair', I just thought some opinions of people who are not emotionally invested in the situation would be helpful.

    Thanks for your time
  • InsertHereInsertHere Forumite
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    nicechap said:
    IMHO, being offered £5k less for 21hrs extra a week is not a suitable alternative - have you actually asked your union/ ACAS as opposed to just looking at info on the web.  

    Ultimately, it does not matter whether I or anyone here thinks its suitable or not, only you can make the initial choice, and then, only an Employment Tribunal can give you a definitive answer and that's always a gamble.
    Thanks for your reply.

    I agree, the opinions of strangers ultimately doesn't matter. I was just after some input from people who aren't emotionally vested in the situation. My opinion is going to be biased because I obviously don't want to work more hours for less pay - I mean, who does? I don't feel it's a suitable alternative so the fact you agree means there's a chance I'm not being unreasonable. Sometimes having a third party opinion from someone looking in from the outside makes all the difference. It at least offers me some hope that I'm in the right and that fighting for an appeal is worth it. I'm at that stage where I don't have much to lose!

    Thanks for your help
  • edited 27 February at 12:32PM
    UndervaluedUndervalued Forumite
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    edited 27 February at 12:32PM
    There is no right to be made redundant unless your post genuinely is redundant. Your right is not to be made redundant if it can be avoided! Anything else including so called "voluntary redundancy" (which technically doesn't exist) is actually a mutually agreed separation. The terms for that can be anything the parties agree but you have to receive legal advice before signing. 

    In paragraph 1 you say "offer my old job back" but in paragraph 2 you talk about "effectively it's a demotion" so I am struggling to understand exactly what is happening!

    What is an acceptable alternative job, rather than a forced redundancy, is complex!
    Thanks for your reply and I'm sorry if my original post wasn't clear enough. To clarify:

    1) It is forced redundancy, my role is being made obsolete (there are 4 of us, all losing our positions).
    2) My manager is saying I'm not entitled to redundancy pay because he's offering me an alternative job. My issue is that the alternative job he is offering is my old position I had before my promotion which is more hours, less pay and a completely different shift pattern. I believe this isn't a 'suitable alternative' as it is nothing like my current role. I just wanted some external opinions on the situation. I'm obviously going to be biased that this 'isn't fair', I just thought some opinions of people who are not emotionally invested in the situation would be helpful.

    Thanks for your time
    I think there is certainly an argument to be made that it isn't a suitable alternative but I really couldn't call the outcome if you took it to a tribunal. If you are considering going down that line you need to get some proper legal advice.

    ACAS is not a substitute for legal advice, at the first level it is simply a call centre staffed by people with limited training largely reading from scripts.

    As I understand it, if you choose to refuse the alternative job offered you would have to resign and claim unfair dismissal. It is not constructive dismissal under such circumstances, despite the resignation. Even with good advice it is a gamble. Your redundancy entitlement is not huge but obviously it is a nice "bonus" if you can easily secure another job. If you can't the redundancy / UD compensation won't cover many months lost salary I'm afraid. If the firm defend a tribunal claim it will take many, many months before you find out if you win and ultimately get any money. Even if you win a tribunal will expect you to have made every effort to minimise your losses by taking pretty much any job you can find, not just one of the level you seek.
  • getmore4lessgetmore4less Forumite
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    The initial push back is unless they offer a suitable alternative you will be redundant, what currently on the table is not suitable so they need to engage in meaningful consultation, to establish a suitable alternative or dismissal due to redundancy. 
  • edited 28 February at 7:57PM
    headpinheadpin Forumite
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    edited 28 February at 7:57PM
    s138 (2)(a)(ii) of the Employmemt Rights Act would seem to be applicable to me. 
    On that basis the employee appears to as if he/she is being made redundant, regardless of any opinion of the employer. It would appear the employer is just trying to avoid their legal duty and responsibility. 

    Unfortunately it seems that unless the employer relents their position then an Employment Tribunal is the way forward.

  • badgerdeluxebadgerdeluxe Forumite
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    It seems to me that you currently have an employment contract to do a job for 39 hours per week at X pay per hour.
    Your employer has offered you a new contract with 60 hours per week and <X pay per hour.
    If you don't sign the new contract the current one is still valid, so they would need to terminate your employment according your current contract to get rid of you.

    If it were me I'd point that out to my employer, and maybe check my position with a lawyer as well. You also need an understanding of your existing contract and it's termination mechanisms - gross misconduct often means immediate termination of contract without compensation, there may be other such conditions.
  • edited 29 February at 10:06AM
    UndervaluedUndervalued Forumite
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    edited 29 February at 10:06AM

    If you don't sign the new contract the current one is still valid, so they would need to terminate your employment according your current contract to get rid of you.

    No, not necessarily so I'm afraid.

    If the OP doesn't positively reject the change in contract he could well be deemed to have accepted it. Simply not signing it would not be sufficient. Very few things in English law have to be in writing and / or signed to be valid. That is, for the most part, true of employment contracts too.
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