PIP application with incurable cancer

BooJewels

calcotti said:

Potentially illegal under disability discrimination if employer knew of the cancer diagnosis (everyone with a cancer diagnosis is legally treated as disabled under the Equality Act 2010) - but not what he wants to focus on now.

Indeed. They did know about the diagnosis. We already spent 6 months fighting his previous employer for precisely that same transgression (they settled 5 minutes before we submitted it to the tribunal - we just wanted it over with by then - and for them to know they did wrong), so we already know more about it than we really want to. I don't think the stress they put him through was helpful in the slightest and for which I will never forgive them. As you guessed, we don't want to go down that road again. So it will just be dropped.

Thanks also for the additional guidance and for your kind words, they're truly appreciated. A situation like this does make you re-evaluate a bit - friends and family who distance themselves or behave badly towards you, or just aren't helpful - and strangers who offer kind words and assistance - it helps to redress a little balance - thank you all.

BooJewels

Good morning - just a wee update, not that there's any actual progress - perhaps more of a frustrated rant. 

We finally finished the PIP form and we were heading out of the door to post it and the postie arrived with an ESA50 form - so presumably they won't make a decision about him getting any funding until this is done and back.  So I'm not even going to get to enjoy the warm glow of having got that blasted PIP form done and away before I have to launch into another - and boy has that taken a lot of time to do. 

I had thought that because the chap in the Job Centre had filled in some details about my husband being on chemo and how long for (for as long as it keeps it at bay, when it doesn't, they'll try something else) that it might negate the need for more forms and assessments, but I must have misunderstood him.  Now I have to trouble the poor overworked health staff to fill in another form - that bothers me more than having to fill it in myself.  I need to read it more carefully, but it does have a question about chemo and not needing to fill in all of the form, but then adds that you do need to fill it in if you have any other health problems.  They do not make any of this easy, especially when, by definition, you're only filling these forms in because you're poorly - too poorly to even consider work.

They were talking at the clinic on Friday and all of them had experienced great discomfort filling in the PIP form, some had relented and got help with it, some had given up and not even bothered.  It's a very odd form and seems to ask some peculiar questions - it appears to be poorly conceived - or conceived for a very specific purpose.  It doesn't even cover areas like food shopping, getting upstairs to your own bed, using a washing machine and other tasks that are equally important to daily living.  And it fills me with horror when I read posts on here from many people who come away with very small numbers of points, despite finding life very hard due to health issues.   I went through it with Macmillan and they said I'd done a very good job on it, but I shan't be holding my breath. 

The whole experience is making me feel dirty - do they really think you want to be in this situation with your hand out?!  I dearly wish that I was having to iron my husband's work shirts today and sending him off out tomorrow to work, but it's not going to happen, so I have no option but to jump through their hoops.  And don't even get me started on trying to get any funding for my Dad's care costs - that really would turn into a rant - 9 months and counting just to get an assessment.

tomtom256

Normally if on chemotherapy/treatment for cancer the ESA50 just needs to be completed and then it is normally awarded without an assessment or at least thats how it should be done.

Not sure if this has been asked and covered, but do you have a DS1500?

BooJewels

tomtom256 said:

Normally if on chemotherapy/treatment for cancer the ESA50 just needs to be completed and then it is normally awarded without an assessment or at least thats how it should be done.

Not sure if this has been asked and covered, but do you have a DS1500?

That was what I'd understood from the chap in the job centre, that if he's on chemotherapy, it might well circumvent the need for an assessment - as he'd already asked questions about that in our meeting and written things in on the computer about how often he has treatment etc, I thought it might also circumvent the need for the form too.   I'm not bothered so much for us, but there's a page for health people to fill in and I just don't like asking, they already do so much - she did a super letter to accompany his PIP.

No, he doesn't have a DS1500 - to be honest, I haven't asked for one and don't want to know the answer really.  We're working on the assumption that it's not pertinent, or having had conversations about this with his Macmillan specialist nurse, she might have offered it.

calcotti

BooJewels said:

... and the postie arrived with an ESA50 form - so presumably they won't make a decision about him getting any funding until this is done and back.  

ESA assessment rate is paid while the ESA50 is processed. The additional amount for Support Group isn't payable until the 14th week anyway.

BooJewels said:.. I need to read it more carefully, but it does have a question about chemo and not needing to fill in all of the form, but then adds that you do need to fill it in if you have any other health problems.  They do not make any of this easy, especially when, by definition, you're only filling these forms in because you're poorly - too poorly to even consider work.

BooJewels said: ..that if he's on chemotherapy, it might well circumvent the need for an assessment - as he'd already asked questions about that in our meeting and written things in on the computer about how often he has treatment etc, I thought it might also circumvent the need for the form too.   I'm not bothered so much for us, but there's a page for health people to fill in and I just don't like asking, they already do so much - she did a super letter to accompany his PIP.

You must ask for the cancer page to be completed, his CNS etc will be used to doing this. Provided the cancer page is completed he will not have a face to face assessment and will automatically be placed in the Support Group - but as noted above the additional money for this is not payable until the 14th week. Despite this, if he has other health conditions you are expected to complete the form in full. The reason for this is that the impact of chemotherapy and cancer treatments, for many, time limited whereas the other health conditions may have longer term impacts.

BooJewels said:..the PIP form, ..  It's a very odd form and seems to ask some peculiar questions - it appears to be poorly conceived - or conceived for a very specific purpose.  

The idea is that the specific tasks are a representative set of tasks to capture the types of difficulties that someone might experience. You can argue about whether or not that is achieved but that's the idea.

BooJewels

calcotti said:

BooJewels said:

... and the postie arrived with an ESA50 form - so presumably they won't make a decision about him getting any funding until this is done and back.  

ESA assessment rate is paid while the ESA50 is processed. The additional amount for Support Group isn't payable until the 14th week anyway.

That had been my initial understanding, but I'm starting to get confused now and I think I misunderstood the chap in the Job Centre about how it would progress.  We've not heard anything about getting any money yet, so were a little surprised when another form arrived. 

I knew about the 13 week assessment rate, but there was some additional confusion over dates as he's been in and out of hospital (it's not like your bills stop because you're elsewhere) and whilst he has continuous fit notes going back to November, he got some holiday pay in December just before he was fired, so can't count that period, plus a 7 day waiting period.  So I have no idea when it might actually start.

BooJewels

Sorry @calcotti you must have edited whilst I was typing.  
"You must ask for the cancer page to be completed, his CNS etc will be used to doing this. Provided the cancer page is completed he will not have a face to face assessment and will automatically be placed in the Support Group - but as noted above the additional money for this is not payable until the 14th week. Despite this, if he has other health conditions you are expected to complete the form in full. The reason for this is that the impact of chemotherapy and cancer treatments, for many, time limited whereas the other health conditions may have longer term impacts."

That makes total sense.  I think in his case, the long term impact of the cancer may well trump any other health considerations and they're related anyway - for example, he has knackered kidneys, but as a result of the bi-products of his cancer damaging them, so they go hand in hand.  I'll read the form more carefully and see how it can be covered as easily as possible.  Our own initial thinking was that if the other health issues wouldn't stop him working and he has worked with them already, then they maybe didn't need to be covered in detail at this stage.

I know that the CNS won't mind, but I feel as though we're always asking her for something.  It's because she's so lovely that you don't like abusing her kindness.  

I'm just frustrated with that stupid PIP form, it's a horrible task filling it in - and the other patients in the unit felt the same - it makes you feel grubby that you have to play this game with trying to say the right thing to score points from a stranger who doesn't want to give you them.    I reckon he should score about 9 or 10 in daily living, but I bet he gets about 3.

calcotti

BooJewels said:We've not heard anything about getting any money yet, so were a little surprised when another form arrived.  

I knew about the 13 week assessment rate, but there was some additional confusion over dates as he's been in and out of hospital (it's not like your bills stop because you're elsewhere) and whilst he has continuous fit notes going back to November, he got some holiday pay in December just before he was fired, so can't count that period, plus a 7 day waiting period.  So I have no idea when it might actually start.

Normally i would expect first ESA payment about two or three weeks after Job Centre appointment. If this hasn't happened I suggest ringing DWP to check progress of claim.

Being in hospital has no impact on ESA entitlement so this should make no difference to the claim handling. He is entitled to ESA from the date his employment ended (but the first 7 days are not paid). The fact he received a payment later is not relevant - it is the date employment ended (as shown on P45) - provided he requested backdating to this date.

BooJewels said:

Sorry @calcotti you must have edited whilst I was typing. 

I admit I do have a habit of editing - for some reason I always think of things after I've posted!

BooJewels

calcotti said:

Normally i would expect first ESA payment about two or three weeks after Job Centre appointment. If this hasn't happened I suggest ringing DWP to check progress of claim.

Being in hospital has no impact on ESA entitlement so this should make no difference to the claim handling. He is entitled to ESA from the date his employment ended (but the first 7 days are not paid). The fact he received a payment later is not relevant - it is the date employment ended (as shown on P45) - provided he requested backdating to this date.

We're in the third week since the JC appointment, so maybe we should hear soon.  I'll give it another week before I chase it.

I had thought that you didn't get paid for in-hospital time, but I can't remember where I got that from - the form certainly asks for the dates - as I said, I'm starting to get confused now.  The receipt of payment aspect was because he took holiday instead of taking it off as sick, as he had holiday owed and it meant at least he got paid something in December.  So he had a fit note covering a time he didn't work, but got paid as holiday.  His P45 says 31/12 as his employment ending, although it was a few days earlier they actually fired him, but they also paid him in error for a shift he didn't work, so both parties agreed to leave everything as it was.  No loss there.  The chap at the JC changed our start date to 1/1/20.

So he would get paid ESA from something like 8th January for 13 weeks (to 8th April-ish) at the lower level, then hopefully from there at the Support Group level?  So if he were to get paid in the next week for example, he'd get something like 8 weeks backdated to 8th Jan - then is it paid fortnightly?  That's a bit better than I was expecting then, I didn't think he got paid it when in hospital.

calcotti

ESA and PIP have different rules.

Hospital stays have no impact on ESA.

For PIP you can be paid for a maximum of 28 days while in hospital. If there are repeat stays in hospital then stays that are separated by less than 28 days are linked and added together. For PIP it is therefore important to keep track of time in hospital and to inform DWP if the 28 day limit is reached. Entitlement to PIP is retained, payment is only suspended and will be resumed as soon as DWP are advised that claimant is out of hospital. The day of admission and day of discharge do not count as days in hospital (which means that a single night in hospital has no impact).

The reason behind this is that ESA is an 'earnings replacement' benefit so you can pay normal household bills etc. whereas PIP is to help with extra costs of illness and while in hospital someone is being looked after so these extra costs don't apply. You can pick holes in this logic but that's the thinking behind it.

BooJewels said:So he would get paid ESA from something like 8th January for 13 weeks (to 8th April-ish) at the lower level, then hopefully from there at the Support Group level?  So if he were to get paid in the next week for example, he'd get something like 8 weeks backdated to 8th Jan - then is it paid fortnightly?  

That sounds right based on what you have said. Yes, it's paid fortnightly.