Will the UK ever increase the amount of lanes our roads have?

bengalknights

The real solution is to tax all vehicles over 5 years old to death so that they are uneconomical to drive (Japanese tax system) and then put in toll roads on all motorways.

Those who then cant afford to drive would most likely give up and use public solutions leaving quite a lot of uncongested areas.

onomatopoeia99

bengalknights said:

The real solution is to tax all vehicles over 5 years old to death so that they are uneconomical to drive (Japanese tax system) and then put in toll roads on all motorways.

Those who then cant afford to drive would most likely give up and use public solutions leaving quite a lot of uncongested areas.

No, everyone that couldn't afford to buy a new carswould get PCP deals so they could have a new car, then be on here asking about voluntary termination when they couldn't afford it.  Also the likes of Greenpeace would be along to point out that the efficiency savings of a new car vs a five year old car are nowhere near sufficient to balance the carbon cost of the construction and destruction of a car - the last figure I read from them suggested you should buy a new car, then keep it for 20 years, before replacing it with another new car for minimum total carbon / energy cost over the lifecycle.

DrEskimo

Supersonos said:

DrEskimo said:

Supersonos said:

cubegame said:

Little point in adding more lanes when the advent of self-driving cars will remove traffic congestion much more effectively.

I'd love to agree with you, but I think any sort of genuine self-driving car is decades away.

I don't think any of these manufacturers is really considering the human element.  If anything, I wonder if self-driving cars will increase congestion.

https://youtu.be/iHzzSao6ypE

That's a very simplistic example.

A few weeks ago I spent over £100 on a cab so I could drink on a night out in London.  Parking would have cost £40+.  But if I had a self driving, electric car I could set it to just wander around the streets for several hours and it would've been pretty much free.  All it takes is a few thousand people to do the same, and congestion would be epic.

There are so many scenarios that no-one could ever think of.  No human can truly predict human behaviour.

Would you want to buy a self-driving car that sticks to the speed limit, doesn't nip through the amber light and, even worse, other drivers cut you up knowing your self-driving car will come to a halt to prevent a collision?  I don't think I would.

Why would you let it just drive around aimlessly...? Wouldn't you let it pick others up and drop them off, therefore just replacing taxis that would otherwise be there and earning you money? Or just send it home and then back?
Very odd behaviour indeed!

Not that having loads of autonomous cars would mean congestion. It's the flow of traffic that's important, not the volume per se. 

Your last paragraph just goes on to prove the issue is irrational human behaviour doesn't it? So you agree the more autonomous cars, the less congestion?

Norman_Castle

Car sharing might be more common with self driving cars. I wouldn't lend my car to a stranger as I wouldn't want any damage they may carelessly cause, kerbed wheels, tracking knocked out, thrashing it for fun, general incompetence or indifference, but if the car is self driving these shouldn't happen.

Supersonos

DrEskimo said:

Why would you let it just drive around aimlessly...? Wouldn't you let it pick others up and drop them off, therefore just replacing taxis that would otherwise be there and earning you money? Or just send it home and then back?
Very odd behaviour indeed!

Not that having loads of autonomous cars would mean congestion. It's the flow of traffic that's important, not the volume per se. 

Your last paragraph just goes on to prove the issue is irrational human behaviour doesn't it? So you agree the more autonomous cars, the less congestion?

No way would I want random people using my car, going through my stuff, leaving things in the car that I then have to deal with returning to them etc.  It's the same reason why I don't rent out my spare rooms when I don't have guests staying.

I could send it home and back, but the result is the same - the car is on the road causing congestion rather than parked.

Supersonos

Norman_Castle said:

Car sharing might be more common with self driving cars. I wouldn't lend my car to a stranger as I wouldn't want any damage they may carelessly cause, kerbed wheels, tracking knocked out, thrashing it for fun, general incompetence or indifference, but if the car is self driving these shouldn't happen.

What about mud, vomit, scratches to the dash, tears to the upholstery, chocolate stains, rubbish, people's belongings?

This idea that people won't own cars and will just summon an autonomous car is nonsense.  People love to own a car, for the freedom, to have their own space etc.

It's like when people thought the advent of computers would mean we'd spend less time at work.  Truth is, on average we spend more time at work and then even work from home.

born_again

Supersonos said:

DrEskimo said:

Supersonos said:

cubegame said:

Little point in adding more lanes when the advent of self-driving cars will remove traffic congestion much more effectively.

I'd love to agree with you, but I think any sort of genuine self-driving car is decades away.

I don't think any of these manufacturers is really considering the human element.  If anything, I wonder if self-driving cars will increase congestion.

https://youtu.be/iHzzSao6ypE

That's a very simplistic example.

A few weeks ago I spent over £100 on a cab so I could drink on a night out in London. 

No offence, but London has  the best Public transport system in the UK. Why the need for a Taxi?

DrEskimo

Supersonos said:

DrEskimo said:

Why would you let it just drive around aimlessly...? Wouldn't you let it pick others up and drop them off, therefore just replacing taxis that would otherwise be there and earning you money? Or just send it home and then back?
Very odd behaviour indeed!

Not that having loads of autonomous cars would mean congestion. It's the flow of traffic that's important, not the volume per se. 

Your last paragraph just goes on to prove the issue is irrational human behaviour doesn't it? So you agree the more autonomous cars, the less congestion?

No way would I want random people using my car, going through my stuff, leaving things in the car that I then have to deal with returning to them etc.  It's the same reason why I don't rent out my spare rooms when I don't have guests staying.

I could send it home and back, but the result is the same - the car is on the road causing congestion rather than parked.

Your definition of congestion seems to simply be the number of cars. It is more nuanced than that. It is the number of cars as a function of the road capacity. That is, the ability for X amount of cars to operate on that infrastructure.

What limits the capacity of the infrastructure is the human element. An intersection can only allow flow of a limited amount of cars due to the delay caused by humans to react and navigate the traffic signals to pass through the intersection. Since autonomous cars have the ability to react much quicker, they can increase the capacity of the current infrastructure, thereby reducing congestion. Moving towards fully autonomous roads would negate the need for any traffic signals and continue to increase the capacity further.

Autonomous cars don't only have the potential to reduce congestion by increasing road capacity. There is also the reduction in need for everyone to have personal vehicles, the increased land you can reclaim by not having so much space taken up by parking, and the reduction in accidents and mortality due to reducing the probability of human error.

Supersonos

born_again said:

No offence, but London has  the best Public transport system in the UK. Why the need for a Taxi?

Because I don't live in London.

Supersonos

DrEskimo said:

Supersonos said:

DrEskimo said:

Why would you let it just drive around aimlessly...? Wouldn't you let it pick others up and drop them off, therefore just replacing taxis that would otherwise be there and earning you money? Or just send it home and then back?
Very odd behaviour indeed!

Not that having loads of autonomous cars would mean congestion. It's the flow of traffic that's important, not the volume per se. 

Your last paragraph just goes on to prove the issue is irrational human behaviour doesn't it? So you agree the more autonomous cars, the less congestion?

No way would I want random people using my car, going through my stuff, leaving things in the car that I then have to deal with returning to them etc.  It's the same reason why I don't rent out my spare rooms when I don't have guests staying.

I could send it home and back, but the result is the same - the car is on the road causing congestion rather than parked.

Your definition of congestion seems to simply be the number of cars. It is more nuanced than that. It is the number of cars as a function of the road capacity. That is, the ability for X amount of cars to operate on that infrastructure.

What limits the capacity of the infrastructure is the human element. An intersection can only allow flow of a limited amount of cars due to the delay caused by humans to react and navigate the traffic signals to pass through the intersection. Since autonomous cars have the ability to react much quicker, they can increase the capacity of the current infrastructure, thereby reducing congestion. Moving towards fully autonomous roads would negate the need for any traffic signals and continue to increase the capacity further.

Autonomous cars don't only have the potential to reduce congestion by increasing road capacity. There is also the reduction in need for everyone to have personal vehicles, the increased land you can reclaim by not having so much space taken up by parking, and the reduction in accidents and mortality due to reducing the probability of human error.

I can't be bothered to counter all your points, so let's just agree to disagree.  The real answers will show themselves in time, but I personally believe this idealistic notion of autonomous cars will never materialise because of the human element.