French Barn conversion costs

stotherd

Hi,
Looking for some advice and potential costs for a full barn conversion in France. My wive's (English) parents have given us a barn on a property they bought as a holiday home in Normandy. The barn is about 72sqm/800sqft, and seems to be very solidly constructed, with a very solid roof, though it may need replaced. The plan is to have a bedroom, with ensuite shower room and open plan living room/kitchen on the ground floor, and use the stone dividing wall to separate the two. There'll then be a staircase up to the first floor which would need to be added, with 2 more bedrooms, and a shower room or bathroom if possible upstairs. We'd also need to add several windows.
We have absolutely no idea how much it would cost, how best to finance it (there's likely no way we can pay it outright), and how best to go about getting people in to do the work.
Thanks for any advice.

spadoosh

My parents bought a barn in france that needed a full renovation. 
They bought it for 30k euros and spent about £60k on it. This was over quite a few years with them doing the work as and when they could get over with more specialised works being contracted. 

I cant really give you much in terms of prices, that was finished about 8 years ago. But id strongly recommend avoiding french builders, whilst the work they do is usually to an excellent standard, it takes a very long time and are usually quite expensive. That said, you get a lot of brits/foreigners who are trying to supplement a retirement out there who think they can do a lot more than they actually can. Same as here really, do youre research, get recommendations etc. 

With regards to financing it, what is your position? Are you living in the uk, working, income levels?
Building supplies in France are generally quite expensive, youll pay twice the price for things like paint and branded power tools. It can be worth taking some things over from the UK. But then things like electrics and plumbing use different standards so might not be compatible. 

stotherd

That's kind of the route my Father-In-Law took for updating the farmhouse itself but its taken a lot of work and a long time, although it has been significantly cheaper. My in-laws do live over there for half the year so I'd be relying on them to coordinate any work, and they do have experience getting some building supplies. I suspect we'd be able to get a good discount on a lot of things/tradespeople through them, but I don't want to rely on that, and would rather have a range of how much it could cost.

We both work and live in the UK, with decent wages but also a decent amount of debt clogging up our cashflow for a few years, but we'll have about £500/month soon to dedicate towards this project if it makes sense, instead of tackling our debt. We have some equity we could release too if it would be worth it though.

spadoosh

Theres a lot of cash in hand work which can give discounts but with those you tend to be hit or miss with the quality. They had an amazing carpenter who was a bargain but then they ended up paying someone trademans rates for what was labouring work. 

What is the purpose of this barn? If its just for holidaying/visiting i cant help but think itd be more cost effective to just book conventional holiday lets. 

My parents had a second barn too, they where more than happy for us to do it up but i could never justify it. We'd have to pay £60k+ on doing it up to be used maybe 2-5 weeks per year. Would take at least 5 years to complete and would require a huge amount of work from ourselves. We could never really sell it as firstly property in france does not sell quick in the slightest, and it was part of my parents property. They made a bit of money on it over all but as mentioned that was becuase a large part of the work was done themselves. 

stotherd

It'll be let out for holiday letting for most of the year, as part of a kind of small resort my in-laws are trying to set up, if they can.
My in-laws have another property they live in nearby, that is let out regularly, and will be full time when the farm house is more comfortable. We're hoping to make our money back through the letting, and only use it ourselves around Christmas and for a week or 2 in the summer.
From what you're saying I'm guessing a fair estimate at this point would be around £100,000 given the Brexit pound drop and inflation.

knightstyle

We lived in France for 17 years before retiring back to the UK, we renovated and built several properties and had a great time.  First go and introduce yourselves to the Mayor, have a chat about your proposals, your barn may not be in the area of permitted development and you need to get services to it plus a sewerage system, is there room for a gravity fed sand filter that is now required?
Then get the forms for outline planning, these are free from the Mairie, take pics and draw what you propose with a detailed floor plan.  Do not employ an architect, if these outline plans have been approved you can then employ a maitre d'oeuvre who can draw plans and follow through with getting permission.  You will then have 12 months to do the work but this can be extended.
Costs, well how long is a piece of string but if you use local individual tradespeople look to spend around 80k euros plus cost of services and septic system.

Gastines3

We had 4 properties in Brittany that needed complete renovation including all services,water/electrics/Fosse Septique etc,.At first we were able to buy quantities of building supplies from U.K:I had accounts with Building Suppliers; and as long as the receipts were available,you were allowed to deduct costs and were allowed a percentage for labour costs,off tax on sale price. We did quite well on each property but law changed on tax allowances and gradually as French suppliers improved stock ,some items were cheaper. It would be well worth looking getting advice from a Notaire regarding the property,i.e.registration of land division etc.etc. and speaking to the Mairie before you start spending money,particularly if a future sale is liable by you or parents.Inheritance Law regarding property in France can be a nightmare as many U.K. buyers have found out to their cost. Bonne Chance.

Gastines3

Add-on..My wife has reminded me that we were allowed 3 times the value of building material receipts,French and U.K. on work that we had done ourselves,any French workman receipts had to have a TVA number.THe Hotel des Impot did send a chap to check that we had used the materials on the house.Spending 3 hours checking 120 sheets plasterboard etc. etc. Also worth remembering that if the house is your main residence for six months,you are not liable for Capital Gains Tax.Same as UK. As the last house was sold 7 years ago it does pay to check up to date ligislation. In the case of the original poster, he may do well to check where he stands with owning the property and with the French Inheritance Laws as we personally  know of several people who have come seriously financially unstuck. Particularly a problem with second marraiges with sons etc.etc. Worth seeing a Notaire before parting with any money,deposits etc.

Gastines3

Add-on. My wife has just reminded me,we were allowed 3 times the value of all building material receipts,french and U.K. but they did send a chap to confirm that the items were actually used.He spent about 3 hours in the property and made sure we had used 120 sheets plasterboard etc.etc. Another point is that as long as it was your main residence for 6 months ,you are not liable to any capital gains tax,same as in U.K. By doing this 

knightstyle

We also used the three times the material used when renovating a property we were not living in but never had anyone come to the property to check.  But this system changed some time ago.  We sold our last property, a house we designed and built, two years ago and even though we had returned to the UK a few years earlier paid no tax on the profit.  You need to check the rules in place when you sell as they change regularly.
I am sure the inheritance rules have now changed as well and the money no longer has to "follow the blood"