Sensible questioning or costly barrack-room lawyering: which?

nosferatu1001

See what they say
But there is no way ECP owns it. None. 

Cark

I look forward to hearing from them. After all, the basis for declining to waive the "fine"  is that None.Of.This.Has.Anything.To.Do.With.Us. ECP own the car park, we don't. Sorry: can't help. 

I also look forward to hearing from the planning department. I have asked it what legal implications, if any, exist in regard to the erection of woefully misleading advertising signage consequent upon the granting of Local Authority planning consent. I have copied Planning in on the M&S Executive office mail.

beamerguy

Cark said:

I look forward to hearing from them. After all, the basis for declining to waive the "fine"  is that None.Of.This.Has.Anything.To.Do.With.Us. ECP own the car park, we don't. Sorry: can't help. 

I also look forward to hearing from the planning department. I have asked it what legal implications, if any, exist in regard to the erection of woefully misleading advertising signage consequent upon the granting of Local Authority planning consent. I have copied Planning in on the M&S Executive office mail.

The sign that says "on behalf of M&S" ?????    Who is lying  ???  A serious problem for the CEO

I liked your letter, bit soft for my liking but it may well work, gently catch a monkey

KeithP

There is a spreadsheet on Eden District Council's website - https://www.eden.gov.uk/business-and-trade/business-rates/businesses-liable-for-business-rates/ - showing who pays the business rates for every property in their area.
See here for the February 2020 version - Business Rates List February 2020 (CSV 1.7 Mb)
It's a bit basic - ok, very basic, there are no column headings - but at lines 1027 and 1028 it seems to show that M&S is the business ratepayer.

Perhaps a phone call to Eden District Council can confirm that thought.

Castle

KeithP said:

There is a spreadsheet on Eden District Council's website - https://www.eden.gov.uk/business-and-trade/business-rates/businesses-liable-for-business-rates/ - showing who pays the business rates for every property in their area.
See here for the February 2020 version - Business Rates List February 2020 (CSV 1.7 Mb)
It's a bit basic - ok, very basic, there are no column headings - but at lines 1027 and 1028 it seems to show that M&S is the business ratepayer.

Perhaps a phone call to Eden District Council can confirm that thought.

I've just checked the same website and it shows that M & S are the rate payer for "Shop and premises" at 22-24 King Street Penrith, under property reference 17251, (they pay £75,600 per year).

Castle

I've found on the Eden District Council's planning register that Euro Car Parks do have planning permission for one ANPR camera/Pole and advertising consent for 6 signs under application references 17/0971 and 17/0972. However, on both applications, Euro Car Parks confirmed that the Marks and Spencer Group PLC are the owners.

beamerguy

Nice detective work castle
This is national press/media stuff if M&S are lying

Cark

Difficult to adequately express my thanks to everyone here for their time patience and enterprise. I'm especially indebted to Keith and Castle for a calibre of forensic tenacity that I lack.

Meantime, I have received the following response from M&SExecutiveOffice<chairman@customersupport.marksandspencer.com>

Dear . . . .

Thank you for your email. My colleague isn't in the office at the moment so I hope you don't mind me responding on her behalf. I will let her know you have been in touch, and I would like to thank you for taking the time to take the photographs.

As your PCN has been issued by a third party you are able to appeal directly to them.

I am sorry we are unable to assist, but thank you once again for getting in touch.

Kind regards:

[name]

Executive Team

Your M&S Customer Service

Unfortunately, I can't now think of what to say in response, other than words to the effect that "Your" M&S Customer Service is hardly mine or indeed any other customer's if it is blithely refusing to help in the waiving of an extortionate £4 per minute charge for an alleged car parking overstay.

The effort involved in having to contend with what is either  incompetence or mendacity at the very top of Marks & Spencer in its "Executive Office", is though a sideshow to dealing with Euro Car Parks. But it's tempting, if only for the record, to get back to  "my" Customer Services to pin it down in regard to the evidence of the signage and the disclaimer made by the "Executive Office".

In this regard, I can only (inadequately) repeat my thanks to Keith and Castle, because the evidence  they have unearthed is so helpful and so timely. Incidentally, I have worked through the Keith's Business Rate List to check that there's no other reference to the 22-24 King Street site or  to Euro Car Parks. There isn't. I'm not used to Non Domestic Rates affairs so perhaps shouldn't be surprised that the record appears to divide the King Street location into two separate rateable entities: THE OFFICE / THE SUPERMARKET.

A further division into CAR PARK, the bit which the Marks & Spencer CEO's team states is not owned or operated by the company, isn't mentioned. Where this store is a bit confusing: for the purposes of the business rates  payable, it's 22-24 King Street, whereas Marks and Spencer gives as its postal address  22-27 King Street. Perhaps Euro Car Parks is the secret owner of an invisible numbers 25 and 26.

nosferatu1001

I would simply ask them why they are stating the car park is "owned" by ECP, when the signs say something else, and the council state it is owned by Marks and Spencer
State if they dont want to help that is one thing, but to lie to you in an attempt to duck responsibility is another
Repeat to them that you are *entitled* to *reasonable adjustments*, under the Equality Act 2010, and as they are the Landowner in this instance, THEY are liable for their *agents* failures. 
State that should their agent continue to harass you, you will consider your legal optoins regarding filing a claim under the EA2010 against Marks and Spencers very strongly. 

Coupon-mad

''As your PCN has been issued by a third party you are able to appeal directly to them.

I am sorry we are unable to assist, but thank you once again for getting in touch.''

Complain and demand that the complaint is passed to their superiors, and say you don't take kindly to being told lies by the owners of the car park, who have the contract with the parking firm agents.    The contractor can certainly cancel a PCN when M&S tell them to and the contractor does not own the car park.  Ask M&S if they like losing customers because they let the tail wag the dog.