Tenants moving out queries

Quillsnpens

I could be wrong and if so I'm sure someone will correct me, but if the tenants don't hand the keys in over the weekend the tenancy technically continues and changing the locks on Saturday could be deemed to be an illegal eviction.

On the flip side i think you are entitled to ask the tenants for double rent for the extra days after the notice of the expiry period.

G_M

Quillsnpens wrote: »

I could be wrong and if so I'm sure someone will correct me, but if the tenants don't hand the keys in over the weekend the tenancy technically continues and changing the locks on Saturday could be deemed to be an illegal eviction.

On the flip side i think you are entitled to ask the tenants for double rent for the extra days after the notice of the expiry period.

Since the tenants have served notice, the tenancy ends, irrespective of whether they leave or not. If they stay, they are 'holding over'.

Yes, double rent can be charged (Distress For Rent Act 1737 S18 ) though it should not be called 'rent' or a new teancy could be created.

For section 18 to apply, the landlord must treat the former tenant as a trespasser in unlawful occupation and must not do or say anything which would treat the lease as continuing. Furthermore, the tenant’s notice must be binding upon him to vacate the premises at the expiry of the notice and must be certain; it cannot (for example) be contingent upon the happening of some event in the future.
It is therefore essential that the landlord does not accept rent at the old level once the notice to quit has expired otherwise he will be held to have waived his right to claim double rent.
The object of the 1737 Act is to compensate the landlord for potential loss of rent when the tenant held over against the landlord’s insistence that the tenant should comply with his notice to quit. Therefore, similarly to the 1730 Act, the right to double rent arises only when the tenant holds over after he has served a notice to quit and, therefore, is in fact a trespasser and the landlord treats him as such. If the tenant can prove that he genuinely believed that he had the right to remain in the premises, he may be able to defend the claim.

https://www.hewitsons.com/latest/news/landlords-can-claim-double-rent-or-value-under-old-statutes

Pendrive

Quillsnpens wrote: »

I could be wrong and if so I'm sure someone will correct me, but if the tenants don't hand the keys in over the weekend the tenancy technically continues and changing the locks on Saturday could be deemed to be an illegal eviction.

Yes - I looked across a few other forum threads connected with tenant departures and it seemed to be the opinion elsewhere too that if tenants don't actually move at the point they should, the LL changing locks will probably constitute an illegal eviction. I wasn't planning to change locks until I thought the move out had been completed - not knowing the LA were planning to string that out for whatever reasons.

G_M wrote: »

Since the tenants have served notice, the tenancy ends, irrespective of whether they leave or not. If they stay, they are 'holding over'.

Yes, double rent can be charged (Distress For Rent Act 1737 S18 ) though it should not be called 'rent' or a new teancy could be created.


https://www.hewitsons.com/latest/news/landlords-can-claim-double-rent-or-value-under-old-statutes

This is a really useful reference which I'll pass on straightaway to the LA! Looking at the text, the tenants could, if they've been told by the LA that it's fine to pass on keys over the weekend, claim they were under that impression.
I'm not sure the LA may have done the tenants too many favours either - I was told they preferred to do a checkout without the tenants being present, this being one of the reasons they carry out checkouts after tenants have left. But as a tenant (as I've been myself quite a bit in the past) I would always want to be present at a checkout.

Anyway, many thanks for this - it is very helpful :-)

Slithery

Pendrive wrote: »

But as a tenant (as I've been myself quite a bit in the past) I would always want to be present at a checkout.

In all my years as a tenant I've never been present at a check-out. In fact I've never even had the option.

It's pointless having a check-out before the end of the tenancy - and after that point the tenant has no right to be in the property.

Pendrive

Slithery wrote: »

In all my years as a tenant I've never been present at a check-out. In fact I've never even had the option.

It's pointless having a check-out before the end of the tenancy - and after that point the tenant has no right to be in the property.

Isn't a checkout generally carried out (where possible) at the point the tenant leaves and hands back keys?
I would have thought a tenant could argue too that if a checkout is carried out after they leave, that any damage etc must have been done by someone else in the intervening time. Tenants can't be responsible for time after a tenancy has finished. And the burden of proof when it comes to claims falls to the landlord.

If a tenant leaves a property in the evening or at night at the expiry of their tenancy agreement / notice period then it might be difficult for them to argue this, given a checkout isn't possible until later and that's down to them. But otherwise I would have thought it in the interests of both tenants and LL for a checkout to take place at the point a tenant leaves.
I would also be inclined, if a checkout did take place after my tenancy agreement ended and I wasn't there, to take copious photos, videos etc myself of the property before I left!

Pendrive

The LA have told me they have arranged to meet with the tenants at my property at 10am on the Saturday. The notice period / tenancy agreement expires at midnight at the end of the Friday, the day before.

Am I correct in thinking that the LA have got his horribly wrong?

G_M

Well they have brought it forward fromMonday, so that's good. And realistically the agent is not going to be there at midnight!

You can be totally legalistic and instruct your agent to instruct the tenatsto be out by midnight and post the keys through the agents letterbox(or indeed throught the property letterbox since presumably the agent and you both have keys.
Or you can take the practical approach and accept that the agent will be there on Saturday ensuring the tenants have left. In any case, did you not say you were going to be there yourself on Saturday to change the locks? All good.

Very rare for the inspection to take place immediately. As already explained, provided the gap is not significant it does not matter.


Your only issue will be if you/agent turn upon Sat and the tenants are still there and deny you access. But let's face it, if they are going to do that it will make no differenence if they do it at midnight on Friday or 10 AM on Saturday!

SusieT

It could be that they moved out on the Friday, arranged everything in the new house and are travelling back to meet the agent to hand over the keys in person rather than posting them in a letterbox?
If it were me I would check my schedule and TELL the agent that you WILL be there at 10.00am (I would be there at 9.30 just in case they tried to pull a fast one, and would be prepared to stay later) on the Saturday and you will be taking the keys with you. Possibly also that you will have arranged for a professional checkout to be done if that is what you want. No more asking them nicely

onwards&upwards

Pendrive wrote: »

What would you suggest I do in the situation?

Go to your property on Saturday and do what you need to do. It’s YOUR property!

If you have to communicate directly with the tenants to make it clear that they need to have finished moving out by midnight Friday, and be there when they move out so they can give you the keys directly, then do that.

Edit. Looks like it’s now sorted for Saturday, well done on being firm.

Pendrive

G_M wrote: »

Well they have brought it forward fromMonday, so that's good.

They haven't brought anything forward from Monday. What they've done is confirm what I'd suspected - they are allowing the tenants, who gave notice for the Friday, to move out after that time, after the expiry of their notice period and the tenancy agreement. Hence them telling me earlier this week that the tenants are 'effectively moving out over the weekend'.

And realistically the agent is not going to be there at midnight! No - in these circumstances tenants are supposed to, as I gather, move out and ensure the keys are returned by the expiry of the agreement, by for instance posting them through the agent's letter box etc. Other threads elsewhere in these forums suggest tenants are advised to ensure in such instances that they have evidence of doing so before the actual deadline... an earlier comment in this thread gives details of claims which can be made against tenants who remain in the property after the deadline.

You can be totally legalistic and instruct your agent to instruct the tenatsto be out by midnight and post the keys through the agents letterbox(or indeed throught the property letterbox since presumably the agent and you both have keys. I've been repeatedly told that if I enter the property at all before the LA 'hand it back', I will forfeit any claim against the tenants' deposit. So whether I have keys or not is irrelevant as things stand, until a checkout has been carried out.

Meanwhile the tenants should be out by midnight, as per their tenancy agreement and notice given. They nominated the date they would move out, and need to move out on that date, it seems to me. If that's midnight, that is up to them; but it shouldn't be after that time.
Or you can take the practical approach and accept that the agent will be there on Saturday ensuring the tenants have left. In any case, did you not say you were going to be there yourself on Saturday to change the locks? All good. No it isn't. I can't change the locks until the checkout has been carried out or it will be conceived as forfeiting any claim against the deposit. The LA say they want to do a checkout on the following Monday or Tuesday.

The 'practical approach' is thus to get hold of an independent clerk as early as possible and get them to come on Saturday - uncluttered by having to plan around tenants belatedly turning up with keys some hours after the expiry of their tenancy agreement.

Very rare for the inspection to take place immediately. As already explained, provided the gap is not significant it does not matter. Not in my experience, for the reasons I mentioned in a post above. And I don't as LL want to find myself with the burden of proof in a dispute process where the tenants had been out of the property for several days before the checkout was carried out.
Your only issue will be if you/agent turn upon Sat and the tenants are still there and deny you access. But let's face it, if they are going to do that it will make no differenence if they do it at midnight on Friday or 10 AM on Saturday!
It does make a difference whether tenants are there before or at midnight; or afterwards. One is within their tenancy agreement and notice period, and the other is outside it.

SusieT wrote: »

It could be that they moved out on the Friday, arranged everything in the new house and are travelling back to meet the agent to hand over the keys in person rather than posting them in a letterbox? So far as I'm aware, and from reading comments here and in other threads as well as trying to research this around the internet, they must move out and return keys by the expiry of their agreement. If they haven't returned the keys then they haven't moved out... I think (others may want to comment) that whether they sleep in my property or somewhere else after their agreement runs out is probably irrelevant - the key element is that they need to return the keys by the expiry of their agreement and if they fail to do that they will not have moved out.

The tenants themselves gave notice and specified the termination date - it was not myself who gave notice to them. They need to move out on the date they gave - not the day after...

If it were me I would check my schedule and TELL the agent that you WILL be there at 10.00am (I would be there at 9.30 just in case they tried to pull a fast one, and would be prepared to stay later) on the Saturday and you will be taking the keys with you. Possibly also that you will have arranged for a professional checkout to be done if that is what you want. No more asking them nicely

I think the professional checkout arranged by myself is the only way forward on this particular point now to get this done. If so, the tenants need to be told to surrender the keys by the expiry deadline of their agreement and then keep away - their turning up with keys at 10am hours after their tenancy actually expired isn't conducive to my trying to arrange others to go along that morning to carry out a checkout.
I have asked the LA for their explanation of the tenants' intended moving out of the property after the expiry of the tenancy, and why it wasn't made clear to the tenants when they had to have moved out by, including returning the keys. It also seems, again from a number of forums here, that tenants, following the expiry of an agreement, have no right to return to a property subsequently, and I've thus also asked the LA about why they have evidently organized for exactly that to happen.

As I've mentioned earlier on this thread, I've organized a few things around the notice date I was given; including being away for some time following the Saturday. I'm extremely angry that tenants have given notice of a date they will move out by, and - enabled by an LA I pay - are now proceeding to try and move out on a different and later one, without any party ever mentioning anything about this to myself until I asked about collecting the keys to my property. So I'm certainly not in the mood to ask nicely about any of it at present, and am likely to insist that the tenants vacate and return keys by their tenancy expiry and don't return at all subsequently; and to arrange that independent inspection myself for the Saturday morning.